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Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 12:17 am
by JulianMoreno
Hello,
Before I begin, let me bring up some general info about myself in case it proves useful:
Height: 183 cm
Weight: 79 kg
2k time: 6:42.8
Resting HR: 59 bpm
In comparison to my 2k time, my heart rate when attempting to do longer pieces is going too high too quickly. I cannot find a way to lower it under 160, no matter how slow I go. Even at 2:08/500m (which is above my steady state), It still rises above 160 after a few minutes. Is my aerobic capacity this bad, or is there another reason for this? Maybe a high max heart rate?
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 7:28 am
by Joebasscat
How did you determine your SS to be 2:08? If your hr is at 160 or better, then safe to say your SS is too high. I’m envious of your 2k time, but I’d back that SS pace off until you can hold your hr at 70% of max or less. Won’t feel much like work, but that’s the idea. Good luck.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 7:57 am
by Sakly
Hi,
As we don't know your max heart rate, we cannot say if 160 is too high for steady state. There are some individuals which get quite high HR at workouts.
For me steady state is not only about heart rate. I work steady states in a range from 2:00 to 2:04/2:05, depending on feeling of the day, RPE and heart rate. That can lead to work at 80%, but also at 70%. As long as recovery is feeling good, I see no problem working at higher heart rate levels than 70%.
How much steady work do you do? It takes long time for the body to adapt.
What about your 5k/10k times?
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 8:03 am
by p_b82
what's your max seen heart rate while exercising?
I'm 40, my resting HR is around 60, my max hr = 189, I have a much slower 2k time, but I can quite happily work with a Hr of 170 for an hour which is 90% mhr; my 90% MHr reserve is up at 176bpm. In fact I did a 14k the other week, and my hr in the last 20mins was 180-182, at the time I wasn't feeling "stressed" with the HR up that high either - 182 is my max hr reserve before I go anaerobic with my effort - from a purely CV overload perspective (95% MHrR)
The reason I've mentioned this -is that some of us aren't build with the same Hr efficiencies as others as part of the CV system; but we can work much closer to our top end HR's so it's not always important to focus on the HR imo.
I've seen my Hr drop for a given pace as I've got fitter, but I think it's going to take me many many years, if ever, to get down to the low HR levels of some folks here - I just don't think I'm built the same way.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 10:20 am
by aegis
I'm 44, max hr observed 204 and current rhr is about 55. Using karnoven formula my zone two 144-159, i adjust from time to time depending on my rhr.
If you are having trouble finding good steady state paces you can try 50-55% of ur 2k wattage. For me it correlates quite well with my z2 paces.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 10:50 am
by Tsnor
JulianMoreno wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 12:17 am
Hello,
Before I begin, let me bring up some general info about myself in case it proves useful:
Height: 183 cm
Weight: 79 kg
2k time: 6:42.8
Resting HR: 59 bpm
In comparison to my 2k time, my heart rate when attempting to do longer pieces is going too high too quickly. I cannot find a way to lower it under 160, no matter how slow I go. Even at 2:08/500m (which is above my steady state), It still rises above 160 after a few minutes. Is my aerobic capacity this bad, or is there another reason for this? Maybe a high max heart rate?
Hi, a British sub 6:00 2K rower posted
he was doing his SS at 2:10. If your HR is rising on SS after the first 20 mins (called heart rate drift) then you are doing SS above the first lactate threshold (above LT1, above zone 2 in a 5 zone model).
If you want SS in zone 2 then find your personal max HR (by max pressure 4 min intervals, not by age formula) and then use 70% of your max for SS. If 160 is your SS then your max heart rate would be above 225, which is possible if you are young, less likely if you are 60+. You can also use the conversation test or rising heart rate tests. If you can speak a paragraph out loud while rowing then you're in zone 2. Since you track HR you can also use HR drift ... if your HR at constant split at the end of the piece is roughly the same as your HR at the 20 minute mark then you are in zone 2 (of 5).
Aside: You can do SS at 160 even it that is above zone 2. It's beneficial. In cycling this would be a "sweet spot" or "threshold" ride. Just count it as a hard workout and don't do more than 3 hard workouts a week.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 11:55 am
by Dangerscouse
Sakly wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 7:57 am
For me steady state is not only about heart rate. I work steady states in a range from 2:00 to 2:04/2:05, depending on feeling of the day, RPE and heart rate. That can lead to work at 80%, but also at 70%. As long as recovery is feeling good, I see no problem working at higher heart rate levels than 70%.
Agree with this. Unless you're making sure that your hard sessions are harder because you're going slower imo, there's not much benefit in going slower for your steady state.
p_b82 wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 8:03 am
The reason I've mentioned this -is that some of us aren't build with the same Hr efficiencies as others as part of the CV system; but we can work much closer to our top end HR's so it's not always important to focus on the HR imo.
I've seen my Hr drop for a given pace as I've got fitter, but I think it's going to take me many many years, if ever, to get down to the low HR levels of some folks here - I just don't think I'm built the same way.
I agree with this too. It's a measurement that can be too disheartening for some people but in reality you can be getting faster and fitter with a HR that is higher than others. HR is subjective and it's important to only monitor your own range
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 5th, 2023, 2:15 pm
by Sakly
Tsnor wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 10:50 am
Hi, a British sub 6:00 2K rower posted
he was doing his SS at 2:10. If your HR is rising on SS after the first 20 mins (called heart rate drift) then you are doing SS above the first lactate threshold (above LT1, above zone 2 in a 5 zone model).
I did a 60min session today, at 1:54/55 at r22.
My heart rate went to 152 after 10min and stayed there for 40min. When I would have stopped at 50min, this rule would set this piece as a steady state and I wouldn't have noticed a drift. The drift occurred after 50min in the last 10min of the row and went to 156. So I am not sure if drift is the only parameter which should be taken into account?!
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 1:22 am
by Tsnor
Sakly wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 2:15 pm
Tsnor wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 10:50 am
Hi, a British sub 6:00 2K rower posted
he was doing his SS at 2:10. If your HR is rising on SS after the first 20 mins (called heart rate drift) then you are doing SS above the first lactate threshold (above LT1, above zone 2 in a 5 zone model).
I did a 60min session today, at 1:54/55 at r22.
My heart rate went to 152 after 10min and stayed there for 40min. When I would have stopped at 50min, this rule would set this piece as a steady state and I wouldn't have noticed a drift. The drift occurred after 50min in the last 10min of the row and went to 156. So I am not sure if drift is the only parameter which should be taken into account?!
Strongly agree that HR drift is not the only variable. A zone 3 (threshold/sweet spot) session where you start to accumulate lactate, but you reach an elevated but steady lactate level is also steady state for your heart rate, it just happens to be SS above LT1. You might not see drift, but you are not in zone 2.
Starting with a zone 2 SS heart rate and watching for heart rate drift works pretty well for keeping you in zone 2, but it's not perfect either.
None of the HR formula that help you find steady state zone 2 heart rates give you help with duration. Its on you to start short then progressively overload rowing duration while still staying in zone 2. Think we've all seen the comment "I rowed SS for a while, then I couldn't hold the same split at my SS heart rate, should I hold the pace and let HR rise or should I drop pace?". That's HR drift telling you that you've exceeded the intensity/duration mix for zone 2 SS.
The HR / HR drift metrics fall apart when the workout is not cardio limited. For example, try rowing at 12 SPM. You can drive some pretty high per stroke pressure levels, get all the muscle fiber tears of a hard session, and require rest/recovery all without exceeding a zone 2 SS heart rate.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 2:13 am
by jamesg
some general info
This would include age and ratings used. Do you take BP controllers?
Pace 128s is 170W, so over 2W/kg, more than you need do for SS. As to age, 1.5 to 2 is enough.
Suggest you use other controls rather than HR, they can tell us what we are doing, which is needed to explain our reactions. If I go blue, my problem is not the exact shade, but why.
The logic of training says don't do too much hard stuff, growth functions can't keep up. But what is hard? No idea, without controls such as Watts/Rating or W/kg, even total work done (Watts x Time). If you like hard stuff, stick to less than 2-3 hours a week total, enough to maintain status.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 2:26 am
by Sakly
Tsnor wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 1:22 am
Sakly wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 2:15 pm
Tsnor wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 10:50 am
Hi, a British sub 6:00 2K rower posted
he was doing his SS at 2:10. If your HR is rising on SS after the first 20 mins (called heart rate drift) then you are doing SS above the first lactate threshold (above LT1, above zone 2 in a 5 zone model).
I did a 60min session today, at 1:54/55 at r22.
My heart rate went to 152 after 10min and stayed there for 40min. When I would have stopped at 50min, this rule would set this piece as a steady state and I wouldn't have noticed a drift. The drift occurred after 50min in the last 10min of the row and went to 156. So I am not sure if drift is the only parameter which should be taken into account?!
Strongly agree that HR drift is not the only variable. A zone 3 (threshold/sweet spot) session where you start to accumulate lactate, but you reach an elevated but steady lactate level is also steady state for your heart rate, it just happens to be SS above LT1. You might not see drift, but you are not in zone 2.
Starting with a zone 2 SS heart rate and watching for heart rate drift works pretty well for keeping you in zone 2, but it's not perfect either.
None of the HR formula that help you find steady state zone 2 heart rates give you help with duration. Its on you to start short then progressively overload rowing duration while still staying in zone 2. Think we've all seen the comment "I rowed SS for a while, then I couldn't hold the same split at my SS heart rate, should I hold the pace and let HR rise or should I drop pace?". That's HR drift telling you that you've exceeded the intensity/duration mix for zone 2 SS.
The HR / HR drift metrics fall apart when the workout is not cardio limited. For example, try rowing at 12 SPM. You can drive some pretty high per stroke pressure levels, get all the muscle fiber tears of a hard session, and require rest/recovery all without exceeding a zone 2 SS heart rate.
Thanks for reply, that is how I assumed.
So I can probably take the 40min part as a zone 3 SS where my lactate levels were constant on a higher level and probably rised a bit last 10mins, if I understand right.
So HR drift can be used as an indicator for sessions below and above LT1, as it behaves likely the same, but HR level is different.
If muscular fatigue kicks in earlier, sure, then cardio system is not of interest at first place.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
by nick rockliff
Sakly wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 2:26 am
Tsnor wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 1:22 am
Sakly wrote: ↑March 5th, 2023, 2:15 pm
I did a 60min session today, at 1:54/55 at r22.
My heart rate went to 152 after 10min and stayed there for 40min. When I would have stopped at 50min, this rule would set this piece as a steady state and I wouldn't have noticed a drift. The drift occurred after 50min in the last 10min of the row and went to 156. So I am not sure if drift is the only parameter which should be taken into account?!
Strongly agree that HR drift is not the only variable. A zone 3 (threshold/sweet spot) session where you start to accumulate lactate, but you reach an elevated but steady lactate level is also steady state for your heart rate, it just happens to be SS above LT1. You might not see drift, but you are not in zone 2.
Starting with a zone 2 SS heart rate and watching for heart rate drift works pretty well for keeping you in zone 2, but it's not perfect either.
None of the HR formula that help you find steady state zone 2 heart rates give you help with duration. Its on you to start short then progressively overload rowing duration while still staying in zone 2. Think we've all seen the comment "I rowed SS for a while, then I couldn't hold the same split at my SS heart rate, should I hold the pace and let HR rise or should I drop pace?". That's HR drift telling you that you've exceeded the intensity/duration mix for zone 2 SS.
The HR / HR drift metrics fall apart when the workout is not cardio limited. For example, try rowing at 12 SPM. You can drive some pretty high per stroke pressure levels, get all the muscle fiber tears of a hard session, and require rest/recovery all without exceeding a zone 2 SS heart rate.
Thanks for reply, that is how I assumed.
So I can probably take the 40min part as a zone 3 SS where my lactate levels were constant on a higher level and probably rised a bit last 10mins, if I understand right.
So HR drift can be used as an indicator for sessions below and above LT1, as it behaves likely the same, but HR level is different.
If muscular fatigue kicks in earlier, sure, then cardio system is not of interest at first place.
You are only guessing if you don't know the HR that corresponds with LT1 (2mmol)
It also depends on how you are pacing UT2 work. You should be using a HR cap, if you like to use a constant pace/rate and end the session on the cap you will have a constant steady rise in the HR throughout the session but will have been under the cap. If you choose to keep slowing pace to keep under the cap HR would be more level.
If you row at constant pace/rate and HR stays level, I would assume you are in UT3 and may aswell go for a walk in the park.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 10:36 am
by Sakly
nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
You are only guessing if you don't know the HR that corresponds with LT1 (2mmol)
Sure, without measurement all is guesswork. For me, as a hobby athlete this is good enough
nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
It also depends on how you are pacing UT2 work. You should be using a HR cap, if you like to use a constant pace/rate and end the session on the cap you will have a constant steady rise in the HR throughout the session but will have been under the cap. If you choose to keep slowing pace to keep under the cap HR would be more level.
What Tsnor mentioned.
Constant pace could probably lead to overshoot the cap, if you don't know exactly what you are capable of. So approach of pace adaption during row seems to be more flexible.
nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 9:44 am
If you row at constant pace/rate and HR stays level, I would assume you are in UT3 and may aswell go for a walk in the park.
Don't know if this is right for all people.
I find sessions where I had a stable HR for 10k, but also others at similar pace where HR steadily rises. This often also correlates to RPE. And surely not using paces like walk in the park. Typically I work at paces from 2:01-2:04, which are not "easy" for me (compared to walk in the park).
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 11:08 am
by Dangerscouse
Sakly wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 10:36 am
Don't know if this is right for all people.
I find sessions where I had a stable HR for 10k, but also others at similar pace where HR steadily rises. This often also correlates to RPE. And surely not using paces like walk in the park. Typically I work at paces from 2:01-2:04, which are not "easy" for me (compared to walk in the park).
FWIW, I'm similar as my HR can have sessions of either no or very little cardiac drift but I'm not going easy enough to compare to a walk. I'm sweating and putting in effort, not loads, but certainly enough, and my HR isn't going up.
Apart from anecdotal evidence I have no idea why it's happening, but it's been like that for years and I assumed it was due to the air con when I trained in a gym. It was affected by Covid, but it's becoming common again.
Re: Heartrate Issues
Posted: March 6th, 2023, 11:48 am
by Sakly
Dangerscouse wrote: ↑March 6th, 2023, 11:08 am
Apart from anecdotal evidence I have no idea why it's happening, but it's been like that for years and I assumed it was due to the air con when I trained in a gym. It was affected by Covid, but it's becoming common again.
Probably this is related to the ratio of fast and slow twitch fiber. I lack explosiveness, so I assume I have much more of slow twitch fibers. So lactate is less building up from fast twitch, but way better absorbed from slow twitch, which results in less increased levels in the blood. I can handle lower loads for long times, but only 5% load increase and I break down.
Gym sessions show this really good. My training partner has much more explosive power, 4 broad jumps he is jumping about 40-50cm more distance than me. If we go for 12 or even more, my distance stays more or less the same, his distance decreases much. Same for squats: @120kg he can do nearly same amount as me - @50kg for time like last training I went for 170 reps, he did 125 in the same time and was lying on the floor. I was not even exhausted.
