Rowerup - Forward body angle

[HornetMaX]

Hi all,

I occasionally record my rowing and send it to Roweup (because it's cool) and it constantly insults me about:

• Drive leg/back separation
• Forward body angle at catch

It used to complain about my shins angle at catch but that's mostly gone now.

So: forward body angle, I'm often far off the mark, by 10 degrees or so.
Anything I can do to improve that ?

[jamesg]

This shows the basic technique, in terms of sequences and posture, which no doubt you've seen already:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

[Dangerscouse]

You're not leaning forward enough? Were your shins not compressed enough, or over compressed?

Assuming that you don't have a belly problem (you're a LWT, so it's unlikely), I'd practice the pick drill, so you can firmly ingrain the mind muscle connection of the movement.

Do you have a sedentary desk job, or something similar? Are you flexible enough, and can you touch your toes? A lack of ROM can sometimes be something that simple. You're just not malleable enough to get in the right position.

[HornetMaX]

Yeah jamesg, I've seen that video (and plenty others) on proper technique.

You're not leaning forward enough? Were your shins not compressed enough, or over compressed?

Shins were OK according to rowerup (i.e. shins leaning a bit back or vertical at maximum, not leaning forward).

Assuming that you don't have a belly problem (you're a LWT, so it's unlikely), I'd practice the pick drill, so you can firmly ingrain the mind muscle connection of the movement.

I used to, but now I like to think my belly is very reasonable

Do you have a sedentary desk job, or something similar? Are you flexible enough, and can you touch your toes? A lack of ROM can sometimes be something that simple. You're just not malleable enough to get in the right position.

Sedentary job: definitely.
Flexible enough: I can touch my toes (actually I can put my hands flat aside my feet), shouldn't be the root cause.

I'll post a link to the rowerup video & pdf analysis.

[Tsnor]

Forward lean comes from the hips, not back. Bending over at the lower back is unsafe - don't do it. Rock your hips.

When you lean forward you should feel your butt rock on the seat. If you don't then you're bending your lower back into a weak position, which is *not* the goal of forward lean - lower back bend only creates back problems. If you don't feel the rocking try sitting near the front edge of the erg seat, that may help you feel it.

Sitting right now in your chair reading this, bend your head down without moving your hips/butt. Your lower back bends. Now sit up and do this again while keeping your back straight. You should feel your butt rock forward on the chain cushion and your weight shift from the buttock more forward and your upper legs/hamstrings press against the seat cushion. This is the motion.

There are some videos on "grabbing your cheeks" that try to explain the feel of the hips/pelvis rolling forward. By pulling the cheeks up on forward lean you force the pelvis forward where it should be.

You can also look at squat videos. If you do squats there's a point where your butt goes from underneath you to poking out. That motion where the pelvis rotates and the butt pokes out is the forward lean motion. Look also at people doing squats badly wrong -- their butt stays under their chest and they curve their lower back when they learn over to get the weight -- don't do that rowing or weight lifting.

Checkout this video on Connor McGregor rowing. I couldn't watch more than a few minutes. You can see the lack of hip motion and large lower back bend among other things. https://youtu.be/gmKkWYGN1yE?t=95 Video could be clearer on how to fix it, but you can see the problem clearly.

If you can create video for Rowerup you can also use technology to help you. Put a letter size piece of paper with a V behind you. V is 22 degrees forward, 22 back. (protractor or you can split a 90 degree angle in half twice). Compare your back angle - it should match. Video is a great way to do this. If you can use a monitor and compare your back to the V while rowing its even better. Put the V picture where the camera can see it behind you at the catch and in front of you at the finish. IT's easy to compare the angles. Do fix any lower back bend and get your hip swing right before fine tuning the angle -- the correct angle done by curving your lower back is really bad.

Too much lean back builds great abs, but doesn't create rowing power and uses energy you could use rowing. But it does make abs, and is safe. Your choice there. Getting rid of some back lean when your core gets tired, returning to the 22 degree lean back, is a good thing if you are using a larger lean back.

[HornetMaX]

Thanks Tsnor (and all).

I know the theory of it (rock the hips), but I seem to struggle to put it in practice.

Here's a link to a (public) RowerUp recording: here

Clicking here and there you should be able to see the analysis video, a pdf with the analysis of a few strokes (grading, angles etc) and even the original (un-analyzed) video recording (click on "source").

[JaapvanE]

Forward lean comes from the hips, not back. Bending over at the lower back is unsafe - don't do it. Rock your hips.

When you lean forward you should feel your butt rock on the seat. If you don't then you're bending your lower back into a weak position, which is *not* the goal of forward lean - lower back bend only creates back problems. If you don't feel the rocking try sitting near the front edge of the erg seat, that may help you feel it.

What helped me quite a bit is actually a video of UCanRow2: https://youtu.be/4rZ5EcgfVuM

[HornetMaX]

What helped me quite a bit is actually a video of UCanRow2: https://youtu.be/4rZ5EcgfVuM

Nice indeed ! I've seen this explained in plenty of other videos but this one kind of beats them all on clarity.

[RayOfSunshine]

What helped me quite a bit is actually a video of UCanRow2: https://youtu.be/4rZ5EcgfVuM

Nice indeed ! I've seen this explained in plenty of other videos but this one kind of beats them all on clarity.

I went to a UCanRow2 instructor training clinic with Terry Smythe a year before she passed. I wasn't going to become an instructor.. just to learn technique as a beginner. So helpful.

The picking up your cheeks was very helpful. but imagining I'm doing a deadlift is the best "visual" for me. As I was doing a SS today, I realized I was slouching a bit. Thanks for the OP!

[Tsnor]

Thanks Tsnor (and all).

I know the theory of it (rock the hips), but I seem to struggle to put it in practice.

Here's a link to a (public) RowerUp recording: here

Clicking here and there you should be able to see the analysis video, a pdf with the analysis of a few strokes (grading, angles etc) and even the original (un-analyzed) video recording (click on "source").

you're right. video helps a lot.

Your back is great, you just stop your forward lean 1/3 way there (and then do a bit too much layback).

CAN you lean farther forward? Or are things just too tight? If too tight, then time will fix that. You'll keep getting looser. And you can add some gentle lean forward after a set while you are warm.

THANK YOU for linking the rowerup site. Looks interesting.

[HornetMaX]

you're right. video helps a lot.

Your back is great, you just stop your forward lean 1/3 way there (and then do a bit too much layback).

CAN you lean farther forward? Or are things just too tight? If too tight, then time will fix that. You'll keep getting looser. And you can add some gentle lean forward after a set while you are warm.

I can lean a bit more forward, just doesn't come natural I guess. I kind of feel my torso/belly touching my upper thighs.
Gentle lean forward after a set: you mean legs straight, lean hands towards toes ?

THANK YOU for linking the rowerup site. Looks interesting.

Surely not as useful as a coach, but hey ...

[Sakly]

Thanks Tsnor (and all).

I know the theory of it (rock the hips), but I seem to struggle to put it in practice.

Here's a link to a (public) RowerUp recording: here

Clicking here and there you should be able to see the analysis video, a pdf with the analysis of a few strokes (grading, angles etc) and even the original (un-analyzed) video recording (click on "source").

I am only asked to sign up/register. No idea how I could access the video.

[HornetMaX]

Thanks Tsnor (and all).

I know the theory of it (rock the hips), but I seem to struggle to put it in practice.

Here's a link to a (public) RowerUp recording: here

Clicking here and there you should be able to see the analysis video, a pdf with the analysis of a few strokes (grading, angles etc) and even the original (un-analyzed) video recording (click on "source").

I am only asked to sign up/register. No idea how I could access the video.

Oh, I didn't know that you have to sign-up even to only watch an already loaded video.

Anyway, once you're registered you should be able to access any already uploaded video&analysis (except the ones that are flagged private by the uploader) and to upload your own lateral videos for analysis. Not bad for something currently free of charge

P.S.
At the moment the analysis is a bit slow, just let it run (you can even leave the site and come back after). It used to be faster.

[Sakly]

Thanks Tsnor (and all).

I know the theory of it (rock the hips), but I seem to struggle to put it in practice.

Here's a link to a (public) RowerUp recording: here

Clicking here and there you should be able to see the analysis video, a pdf with the analysis of a few strokes (grading, angles etc) and even the original (un-analyzed) video recording (click on "source").

I am only asked to sign up/register. No idea how I could access the video.

Oh, I didn't know that you have to sign-up even to only watch an already loaded video.

Anyway, once you're registered you should be able to access any already uploaded video&analysis (except the ones that are flagged private by the uploader) and to upload your own lateral videos for analysis. Not bad for something currently free of charge

P.S.
At the moment the analysis is a bit slow, just let it run (you can even leave the site and come back after). It used to be faster.

Probably I should give it a go. I wanted to take a video for analysis anyway, even already a year on the erg now. Wanted to do this much earlier, but...

[Tsnor]

I can lean a bit more forward, just doesn't come natural I guess. I kind of feel my torso/belly touching my upper thighs.
Gentle lean forward after a set: you mean legs straight, lean hands towards toes ?

Torso/tummy touching upper thighs at the catch is not a problem. From the video you have room before contact, and when you do make contact it is not a problem.

For the "Gentle lean forward after a set" --> Do an approximate catch position, legs bent then lean forward past where you should lean forward until something gets tight. I think the bent leg, forward lean stretches something in hip rotation other than hamstring.

You also need hamstrings loose. Maybe you do some low rate / low power / overemphasize stoke sequence rowing where you get arms straight, then lean forward until you feel a pull in your hamstrings as you get to your final forward leaning position. Then bring the knees up and roll forward. Or substitute your favorite hamstring stretch. A PIC drill would do this also.

This video gives the evidence for not stretching before exercising. Instead get muscles warm but not stretched. Gives you more muscle snap and lower injury risk. You still need stretching for full range of motion, just do it after warm, maybe wait until after you complete any exercise where you care about measured results. Stretching drops your power. "Stretching Is Making You Slower: The Science " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1wjkdGouMk

WHY you want this forward lean: When your legs drive the seat rolls and your body mass moves towards the back of the rail. Moving mass has momentum. When you legs go flat the seat stops. If you *don't* swing your upper body all of the momentum has to flow from feet pulling on straps to erg to floor (wasted) minus the little bit your arms can transfer to the flywheel. Instead in rowing as your seat stops your upper body takes all the momentum in half the mass (so speed goes up) as it swings from front to back and pulls the handle with it (rowing power, and also transfer of your body's momentum into flywheel momentum). If you don't lean forward enough then to get the same momentum capture/transfer your lean has to go backwards farther (or you use a hard pull on your foot straps to get rid of the extra momentum). A long layback lean means you need to spend energy getting your back up to vertical again, which is essentially wasted work.