Concept2 Forum

I do between 50 and 60k of low rating (18 spm) steady state per week. I do these workouts at at low DF (85-90) and use quite firm pulls. My peak force is usually between 600 and 700N during these workouts, which is on par with my body weight. In the last few months, I have continued to improve in terms of aerobic capacity and power.

However, in my last two 2k tests, I notice that I cannot sustain a rating greater than 30 spm. More than this rate, my split would be way too fast to sustain for 2k. I understand that given my small size, to further improve my 2k, I need to increase my stroke rate. How should I approach this problem? Should I decrease per stroke power and row 2k at a higher rate?

How about my UT2 steady state training? Should I increase rate, decrease per stroke power while keeping split time unchanged? Or should I keep my per stroke power output and increase rating? The second approach will push me into UT1 or higher intensity.

I experimented with this a little today. I struggle getting the spm up there. A lot of that for me will be adaptation and spending more time at those paces. But, I was able to lower my drag factor which made ramping up spm and I felt like I was able to hold my goal 2k pace easier with a slightly less power per stroke? But….your DF looks like you don’t have room to lower and prob requires a different approach.

Vcweiss346 wrote: ↑

February 5th, 2023, 7:46 pm

I experimented with this a little today. I struggle getting the spm up there. A lot of that for me will be adaptation and spending more time at those paces. But, I was able to lower my drag factor which made ramping up spm and I felt like I was able to hold my goal 2k pace easier with a slightly less power per stroke? But….your DF looks like you don’t have room to lower and prob requires a different approach.

I did my 2k at DF 115, which might be lowered. For steady state at DF 90, I might need to adapt to higher rate.

1. I would try to get to a bit higher DF in steady states to get used to it. Higher drag will give you better results if you can pull with same speed, so you get better scores at same rate.
2. You need to stay at the same stroke power at higher rates otherwise your results will be less good as you lose power/effectiveness of your strokes, what means you need to rate even higher.
3. Train high rates. At least one intervals per week where you have 500s with target rate and pace. The body cannot achieve what you didn't train. I have the same problem for shorter distances and even higher rates 40+, as I didn't train them as well

to further improve my 2k, I need to increase my stroke rate.

You could change style, maybe in the last 500. At over 35 there's no time for a even a short layback finish. I sometimes use a very quick belly finish in and out and onto the feet, almost no swing. This increases the number of catches taken with the legs, at the expense of the finishes taken with the weaker arms.

Some international crews race 2k at well over 40 nowadays. They use nothing like the academically perfect style used last century. This is an example at schoolboy level. Can you see why the winning crew won?

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3078903925469833

NB if you're on your ideal drag, increasing it will make you slower. Already pulling at over your own body weight, not sure if you can pull 200+ strokes even harder.

Are you doing any pyramid training work or are you only doing steady state rows?

I too have trouble rating up, but I've been working on getting more comfortable at higher rates by doing pyramid workouts.

Try something like this session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbdpQYl ... el=asensei

As Sakly mentioned - need to add some interval training where you go faster and use a higher SPM. Spend time at the target 2K pace and understand how it feels. I also think DF should be increased -while it's a preference it seems quite low.

EarthRower wrote: ↑

February 5th, 2023, 7:24 pm

I understand that given my small size, to further improve my 2k, I need to increase my stroke rate.

How about my UT2 steady state training? Should I increase rate, decrease per stroke power while keeping split time unchanged? Or should I keep my per stroke power output and increase rating? The second approach will push me into UT1 or higher intensity.

Not sure you need >30 SPM to improve your 2K time. 7:33.5 is very solid. You will see substantial improvements with training. Some people rate high, some don't. See which one you are more comfortable with. In professional bike racing some pros climb at high pedal rpm, some climb at very low. Both work. It's preference.

This is excellent and will build aerobic base nicely --> "50 and 60k of low rating (18 spm) steady state per week." Aerobic is 80% of your 2K. I'd leave the steady state SPM alone or in 18-20 range. High SPM at low load makes it hard to focus on correct drive sequencing, and your power delivery (which you are limiting because its long/slow steady state) gets awkward.

You should be doing 1or 2 hard sessions/week to build strength, VO2max. Intervals or hard steady state or some other variations that gives you high heart rate and lots so sweat. If you are not doing hard sessions add some or substitute a hard session for some of the 50-60K steady state session. If you want to get the SPM rate up in your 2K, use higher rates in the hard sessions not the steady state. Steady state rowing at unnaturally high SPM is like bicycling in the wrong gear spinning at very high cadence -- no evidence it helps you and it feels weird.

Thank you, everyone, for the suggestions.

I have started experimenting with higher ratings today in my intervals. Previously those were done at <30 spm. I tried 35 today in 500m x 8 while keeping the pace on target. Things I changed were limiting the layback and the compression. As a result, my drive length is reduced from ~1.3m to 1.15m. A higher rating facilitated my breathing, but I will need more practice to get used to it.

I am on my 4th Pete plan cycle, so there are two hard sessions per week to ramp up the rating. I will also gradually increase DF during those interval sessions from 115 to ~125.

For my steady state, I am still using DF 90. Since my steady state is at 18 spm, there is plenty of time for the flywheel to slow down, and I can pull >700N (more than my body weight) with this DF. Increasing the DF may slow my drive down.

Found this video from Travis Gardner regarding using UT1 sessions to develop faster rating. It’s pretty informative: https://youtu.be/GgLNIYJlrw8

EarthRower wrote: ↑

February 7th, 2023, 6:44 pm

For my steady state, I am still using DF 90. Since my steady state is at 18 spm, there is plenty of time for the flywheel to slow down, and I can pull >700N (more than my body weight) with this DF. Increasing the DF may slow my drive down.

There is only one way to find out. My pace drops 5 seconds going from df 90 to a 100, broke a lot of SB's that week.

Personally on anything over 500m my rate is limited by breathing. As an unfit asthmatic I need 2 breaths per stroke to maintain a reasonable power per stroke, but if the breathing is out of sink with the stroke then power drops right off. As a result I have never managed to maintain >30SPM for the majority of a 2k. That said, I can comfortably hit >40SPM for a "sprint" finish when I drop to one breath per stroke rowing significantly anaerobically.

Re DF, most smaller men find 110-120 to be fine for anything over 500m, so don't obsess over keeping it increased.

Best of luck

Iain

iain wrote: ↑

February 9th, 2023, 5:58 am

Personally on anything over 500m my rate is limited by breathing. As an unfit asthmatic I need 2 breaths per stroke to maintain a reasonable power per stroke, but if the breathing is out of sink with the stroke then power drops right off.

That is actually quite normal, also for non-asthmatic rowers. With an SPM around 22, my breathing typically is around 44. But focusing on breathing rhythms is more important for you.

As usual, I agree with tsnor. Anecdotally, I usually aim to rate around 33 for a 2k, but have been deliberately rating down this month because my asthma's really acting up and it's just easier to breathe that way. I set a 2k PR (6:54.x) where the first 1600 was at 30spm, and the next week did a fatigued rate-capped 2k that was only 3 seconds slower (6:57.x).

If you're doing the PP, why not use the speed intervals as an opportunity to try different rates?

Elizabeth wrote: ↑

February 10th, 2023, 6:53 am

As usual, I agree with tsnor. Anecdotally, I usually aim to rate around 33 for a 2k, but have been deliberately rating down this month because my asthma's really acting up and it's just easier to breathe that way. I set a 2k PR (6:54.x) where the first 1600 was at 30spm, and the next week did a fatigued rate-capped 2k that was only 3 seconds slower (6:57.x).

If you're doing the PP, why not use the speed intervals as an opportunity to try different rates?

Thanks for the suggestions! Yes, I am using the intervals in PP to try higher rating. This week’s 500m x 8, I tried rating 33-35 and it did feel differently. In particular, my stroke length was shortened. I will find out whether it is more efficient for me.