Concept2 Forum

Posted: **January 23rd, 2023, 1:03 pm**

Physiology Question: When working at various hr and intensity bands what exactly is being developed at what band and how will that improve 2k performance? E.g., what does UT2 develop? Is it strengthening

muscle to squeeze out more volume of blood per beat? Is it somehow developing more O2 per volume of blood? Are muscle cells improving how they grab 02 from blood? Lungs transferring O2 & waste more efficiently? What is changing in the body that will improve VO2 max, and how does that change as workout type/intensity increases?
Context: 1 My relative performance decreases as distance increases, and that's not due to me being a power beast-- I am not. Conext 2, My max HR may be on high side of the curve (hitting low 190's on intervals at 57 yo).
I'm wondering if that Max hr is a good sign w high BPM --> high vol of blood & O2 being moved, or bad sign indicating low vol of blood per beat or maybe cellular deficiency in getting O2 into (or wastes out of) the blood either at muscles or lungs. Or maybe that's a middling max hr and that needs to improve, too. Would appreciate knowledgeable direct answers or referral to other sources. (Google gives same old super general stuff. )
I am curious as to max performance this body can deliver at 2, 5, and 10k and that means learning how it works and training accordingly. Thanks in advance.

Posted: **January 23rd, 2023, 4:01 pm**

John McDaniel wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 1:03 pm
Physiology Question: When working at various hr and intensity bands what exactly is being developed at what band and how will that improve 2k performance?
Context: 1 My relative performance decreases as distance increases, and that's not due to me being a power beast-- I am not. Conext 2, My max HR may be on high side of the curve (hitting low 190's on intervals at 57 yo). ...
I'm wondering if that Max hr is a good sign ...
I am curious as to max performance this body can deliver at 2, 5, and 10k and that means learning how it works and training accordingly. Thanks in advance.

Genetics has a huge impact on training results... but good results don't show up linked to high or low max HR. Your max HR is not changed by training and gradually falls over time. Max HR is not linked to performance, nor has anyone found a good way to condition the type of training plan that works best based on athlete's max HR.

I'm not sure you can form a 2K improvement plan by looking at physiological impacts of low, medium and high intensity training. Instead I suggest you look at benefits of a training plan which will cover working out across the various zones/bands. There is so much interaction between working the various zones that looking at impacts separately doesn't seem viable. There are several good training plans for rowing in general and 2K in particular. NOTE: A plan to get max results in 8 weeks is very different than a plan to get max results in 2 years. Following the 8 week plan repeatedly for 2 years would be much worse than doing the 2 year plan -- they work differently. If you post asking about training plans say how much time you have per week and how long you will follow the plan.

For your specific question, here is a summary of conventional thinking on physiological impacts: HVT = high volume training,
HIIT is high intensity intervals, Lactate threshold is in the middle. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3912323/ There are nicer table formats but I couldn't find any (bad google day). I only lifted these descriptions from the study, and didn't read the rest so not sure if this study is any good. Many studies show HIIT and Threshold have same benefits as part of a training plan.

HVT executed with low (LOW) intensity [approximately 65–75% of peak oxygen uptake (VO2peak) <80% of peak heart rate (HRpeak) or <2 mmol·L−1 blood lactate (Laursen and Jenkins, 2002; Seiler and Kjerland, 2006)] and prolonged duration is thought to be a fundamental training concept in preparing for endurance events. This type of exercise improves VO2peak by increasing stroke and plasma volume and induces molecular adaptations for capillary and mitochondrial biogenesis, thereby improving the efficiency of metabolic key components for energy fueling (Romijn et al., 1993; Midgley et al., 2006).

HIIT has revealed great improvements in athletic performance and related key variables of endurance (e.g., time to exhaustion, time trial performance, VO2peak, maximal and submaximal running speed, running economy) in both trained and untrained individuals (Laursen and Jenkins, 2002). These improvements were largely due to increases in O2 availability, extraction and utilization and the increases in VO2peak (Daussin et al., 2007; Helgerud et al., 2007). A condensed 2 week block of 10–13 sessions of HIIT led to a 7% increase in VO2peak (Stølen et al., 2005).

Training at or close to the lactate threshold (LT) (Faude et al., 2009), referred to as “threshold training,” improves endurance performance, particularly in untrained participants (Denis et al., 1984; Londeree, 1997). However, Norwegian world-class sprint cross-country skiers demonstrated greater training volume close to the LT when compared to national-level skiers (Sandbakk et al., 2011). Furthermore, in elite cross-country skiers greater improvements in running speed at lactate threshold and performance in a 20-min run when exercising at an intensity eliciting 3–4 mmol·L−1 lactate compared with low intensity training (<3–4 mmol·L−1) were found (Evertsen et al., 2001).

Posted: **January 23rd, 2023, 4:26 pm**

Basically, UT2 will increase mitochondria development so you're able to carry more oxygen. There's bound to me far more than that, but that's the main benefit.

I agree with Tsnor and some more information will be helpful. How long have you been rowing? What is your height and weight? Previous sports background? What distance are you taking about when you say that it's relatively weaker? What type of training have you done to prove this?

I know of a few sub 6 (or very close to it) 2kers who have a max HR of circa 200, so don't worry about max HR. It is very subjective, and not an indication of being better or worse.

From what I have read about recently, there are three limiters to performance. 1) Muscular 2) Cardiac and 3) Pulmonary.

1) you're able to deliver more O2 than your muscles are capable of using. This will develop with time and effort.
2) your heart is incapable of moving sufficient oxygenated blood to the muscles. This is probably best served by gradually ramping up the intensity over a session.
3) your lungs are inefficient at loading O2 or removing CO2. This can be harder to resolve, but breathing techniques will help.

These are probably more beneficial to focus on than the prescriptive bands that everyone can blithely follow. I've definitely been guilty of this, but there are also many other factors that will influence what you're capable of: both on a physical level and a mental level.

Posted: **January 24th, 2023, 3:43 am**

When working at various hr and intensity bands what exactly is being developed at what band and how will that improve 2k performance?

Rowing is a sport, not generic exercise. If you want to know what training effects you could get from rowing, look at what you do: length, force and rating.

Posted: **January 24th, 2023, 4:10 am**

FWIW

Long term training can help enlarge the heart, beneficially, whether this would apply to us non-professionals but who take our training seriously over long periods of time i have no idea.

There are numerous articles discussing this effect, causes, etc

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9119535/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... ly%20clear.

Posted: **January 24th, 2023, 4:25 pm**

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 4:26 pm

I agree with Tsnor and some more information will be helpful. How long have you been rowing? What is your height and weight? Previous sports background? What distance are you taking about when you say that it's relatively weaker? What type of training have you done to prove this?

Thanks for replies so far. I will look at them all, and links,in detail. As for what I am and what are my goals:

57 yo male
5'11", 178 lbs, Fitbit Aria scale reports me at 24% body fat. Could afford to lose 10, but don't know if lightweight is in reach or even a good idea.
2k tt = 7:32 74th percentile
5k workout 19:53 69th percentile
10k workout 42:11 55th percentile
1/2 marathon workout 1:33:52. 47th percentile.
Percentiles are from C2 Log rankings page.

Former college rower. Back when tt's were 2500m I pulled an 8:14 as a ltwt which was quite good. Have stayed pretty consistently active, couple of marathons in my 20's, coaching baseball and basketball in my 30's and 40's, some crossfit in my late 40's early 50's. Not so much in the past 2-3 years.
Goals: Not sure if 7:00 2k is realistic but I should be able to get close-ish. Because I doubt I can crush at any one distance, would like to hit 90th percentile across several, say 2k, 5k, and 10k. Have never been a true endurance guy, but maybe that could change. The first 1/2 marathon I did last week, though it wasn't competitive, was a helluva lot more enjoyable than any timed 2500 or 2k I've ever done.

I've only been back on the machine since early Dec., so A) trying to manage expectations and

hoping for a fairly steep improvement curve. At 57 I have to act like time is of the essence. A 1 year plan might make sense. Anything much more than that would seem to assume facts not in evidence. I have pretty good diet discipline, am not afraid to work at this, and can row every/any day. I have not done any two-a-days since starting up again and I'm not sure I could squeeze in more than one, maybe two per week at the most. I have access to an erg, a schwinn ari-dyne, and a decent garage gym from xfit days w/ pull up bar, rings, bumper plates & squat racks, kbells & dumbells, weighted vests & various knick-knacks. Not sure I'm durable enough to add running to the routine.

All the feedback I've gotten and articles that have been shared so far seem to point in one general direction: spend a lot of time in the seat and make 80% of it long slow distance. If that's all I need to know, that's cool. Just hoping to get a dialed-in program because,well, there's not enough time left to mess around.

Posted: **January 24th, 2023, 5:07 pm**

John McDaniel wrote: ↑
January 24th, 2023, 4:25 pm

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑
January 23rd, 2023, 4:26 pm

I agree with Tsnor and some more information will be helpful. How long have you been rowing? What is your height and weight? Previous sports background? What distance are you taking about when you say that it's relatively weaker? What type of training have you done to prove this?

Thanks for replies so far. I will look at them all, and links,in detail. As for what I am and what are my goals:

57 yo male
5'11", 178 lbs, Fitbit Aria scale reports me at 24% body fat. Could afford to lose 10, but don't know if lightweight is in reach or even a good idea.
2k tt = 7:32 74th percentile
5k workout 19:53 69th percentile
10k workout 42:11 55th percentile
1/2 marathon workout 1:33:52. 47th percentile.
Percentiles are from C2 Log rankings page.

Former college rower. Back when tt's were 2500m I pulled an 8:14 as a ltwt which was quite good. Have stayed pretty consistently active, couple of marathons in my 20's, coaching baseball and basketball in my 30's and 40's, some crossfit in my late 40's early 50's. Not so much in the past 2-3 years.
Goals: Not sure if 7:00 2k is realistic but I should be able to get close-ish. Because I doubt I can crush at any one distance, would like to hit 90th percentile across several, say 2k, 5k, and 10k. Have never been a true endurance guy, but maybe that could change. The first 1/2 marathon I did last week, though it wasn't competitive, was a helluva lot more enjoyable than any timed 2500 or 2k I've ever done.

I've only been back on the machine since early Dec., so A) trying to manage expectations and hoping for a fairly steep improvement curve. At 57 I have to act like time is of the essence. A 1 year plan might make sense. Anything much more than that would seem to assume facts not in evidence. I have pretty good diet discipline, am not afraid to work at this, and can row every/any day. I have not done any two-a-days since starting up again and I'm not sure I could squeeze in more than one, maybe two per week at the most. I have access to an erg, a schwinn ari-dyne, and a decent garage gym from xfit days w/ pull up bar, rings, bumper plates & squat racks, kbells & dumbells, weighted vests & various knick-knacks. Not sure I'm durable enough to add running to the routine.

All the feedback I've gotten and articles that have been shared so far seem to point in one general direction: spend a lot of time in the seat and make 80% of it long slow distance. If that's all I need to know, that's cool. Just hoping to get a dialed-in program because,well, there's not enough time left to mess around.

While I do mostly follow the 80/20 ratio myself, my general advice would be just slightly different:
Do 2 or 3 tough sessions/week. Then do as much long slow distance as you have time for/interest in, around that.

Posted: **January 25th, 2023, 1:32 pm**

For anyone following this post, a member of the FB C2 group shared a youtube vid of an interview w/ a renowned cycling coach and ex phys professor that was outstanding. When I try to copy the link the page fills with gobbledy gook, so maybe just Google "Zone 2 & Beyond: Training Secrets From Dr Iñigo San Millán (Tadej Pogačar’s Coach)" It's an interview hosted on the Global Cycling Network YT channel. Really outstanding: clear, useful explanations of metabolic processes; use of wattage/HR/RPE as proxies for what's going on at cellular, organ, and system levels; easy to follow training guidelines that follow from what's going on in the body. Good, good stuff.

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