Low Pull Technique ? Workouts ?

[Tsnor]

Hi, I see people like MPx (Mike) pulling 1:16 for low pull. He's my age, and I'm not close to that.

Is there a technique to getting a good LP number ?

Specific strength training ?

Any reason *not* to try to improve LP ?

[Sakly]

Interesting topic, will take a seat

[Sandeman]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what is a low pull?

[Sakly]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what is a low pull?

This is your single pull with the lowest split time you see on the monitor.

[Sandeman]

Ah, ok thanks. I'll follow this topic as well, sounds interesting.

[GlennUk]

I guess that improving your low pull is helpful when starting, especially sprints. I spent 3 months working on my 100m pb recently and was quite interested in my LP.

In terms of improving the exercises i would do are practice starts, combined with weights (squats, deadlifts and upright rowing for me).. I set my erg to just row, do a start for 4-5 strokes, watching the monitor so see when it records the fastest pace. then stop, wait for the flywheel to stop, then repeat about 10x.

Couple of points, its likley that you will want to adjust the DF and the precise value will be a function of your physicals capabilities, too high and you cannot pull hard enough, too low and you cannot move fast enough. I found c.215 was right for me with 235 too high and 190 too low.

Its likley that you will also want to increase spm, for me the range was high 30s-mid40s seemed optimal.

Also IMHO raising your feet as high as practically possible also helps as it allows the drive to be closer to parallel to the rail and reduces the tendency to lift of the seat. I found that having the ball of the foot and the toes right at the top of the foot plate was fine, any higher and i couldnt get the power into the drive.

Im MHWT (90kgs, should be about 80-85kgs) 1.8m 62. My LP went form 1:21 - 1:16.0 in 3 months purely by undertaking start training, plus weights and increasing my spm to high 40s.

Interestingly on my last effort i increased my spm to 56 and didnt improve my performance. I suspect i needed more training to improve my power/stroke at higher paces than the high 40s.

P.S. my 100m pb dropped from 17.0 to 16.0 in those three months.

HTH

[MartinSH4321]

Glenn already posted most of the relevant points:
- Feet as high as possible and parallel pull
- Strength work
- practise
- find the right DF

What I would add:
- prevent the erg from moving as good as possible (I built a cage for the front and back feet and drilled it in the floor) and prevent jumping (weight on the front)
- use a short that "sticks" to the seat as good as possible
- get the stroke rate as high as possible. The leg drive will shorten a lot, but that's OK (when I did my LP PB my stroke rate was 60+ at DF 246)
- also work on power, not only strength. When I worked on my 100m I did things like box jumps with weights, double and triple jumps on stairs, explosive sling rows... . Moving (medium) heavy weights as fast as possible (deadlift, squat, cleans...) are great as well altough I never used it because of my injury prone lower back.

[MPx]

Ha! Yes LP - basically a silly vanity number with little merit in isolation. Its (obviously) also the point of maximum forces that you can apply so carries an elevated risk of injury. Nevertheless I look on it as a strong indicator of potential for the ultra sprint times. I was first enthralled by it back in 1998 when I'd helped organise an event at work. As part of it, my co-organiser got a colleaue of ours (Olympian and Oxford blue!) to do a 2k demonstration. I was to erg alongside to help show how good he was. When Gavin sat down next to me he went through a sequence of warm up drills. One of these was to pull some strong numbers and when I glanced across I saw 1:08s on the monitor. At that time I didn't realise it would go that low - I was at the point of breaking 7mins for the first time and I'd never even seen as low as 1:20. I've now seen people down to 1:04 (I think Martin can do that, Cam can probably go lower still). Awesome!

Anyway for me its a brute power number. So all else being equal strongest person wins. But as ever with the erg there are ways to adapt to ones own best as Glenn points out - ie unusual settings like very high feet. I'd also advocate max drag (on my machine that's about 210) and high rate (for me over 50, 56 for my best run). I've not practiced starts, so I see it in the 100m dash and the low pull will probably be the 5th stroke and I may get 3 or 4 of them before dying. Having said that I'm relatively poor at the 100m (94th %tile) vs say 1min or 500 (both 98th) so I've certainly got more to learn from others on that....which may also result in a lower LP number.

I don't do any specific strength training for that, but twice a week I go through a short set of exercises with dumbbells (20/22.5/25kg - curls/presses/etc) for general arm and core strength purposes which obviously will help.

However I do see it as a bit of nonsense really - IMO (for example) Sascha's numbers show a much more admirable spread of scores covering what the sport is really all about.

[edit to say overlapped with Martin's post]

[GlennUk]

Come On Mike you know you want to dip one of your toes in, test the water!!!

As Martin Says find some way to hold the erg down, even at quite modests speeds, my erg moves too much and that of course wastes energy, which ideally needs to go into the chain. Given my relatively modest efforts, i used 80kgs of sand/cement in bags, the erg still moved just not quite as quickly or as far.

I should add, that most of what i wrote came courtesy of Martin and a couple of others on here, so please dont think im suggesting i discovered anything new!!

I set myself a target of 3 months to improve my 100m pb, but i should also say that i tried other things for the 1st month, before just doing repeated starts and weights. The only thing i think did anything was practicing rating high spm which for me didnt come naturally. I did this at normal DF and just did minute on, 2 off, trying to rate more quickly repeatedly.

I plan to return to the 100m a bit later i ntheyar after ve done a FM (and hopefully set myself a new PB at that distance too!). Will add some box jumps etc to my weight regime over th ecoming weeks.

[btlifter]

Agreed with most of what everyone has already shared. As an additional data point:

-For 500 and below I have gradually moved the foot plate up & now have it at the highest hole I can (1). 1/3 of my foot is off the plate entirely. This is unconcerning as I am driving through my heels, which never leave the foot plate.
-My primary focus is on getting a full hip hinge. I only allow my knees to bend as far as they naturally do within the time it takes to achieve full hinge. Usually about 45 degrees.
-Another thing I've recently been experimenting with is a bit of wrist flexion to begin the pull. This helped me hit my recent PB of 1:01.×(1529Watts).

As for the the usefulness of improving one's low pull... I think it depends. For somebody focused on the 500m, I think maximal speed plays a huge factor. Otherwise, I would speculate that application of force with the same/similar stroke & stroke rate as (for example) one's 2k would be a much more useful use of one's time.

As a comparison.... doing speed work via "strides" is probably useful for runners of any distance. On the other hand, focusing on the finer points of improving one's 40 yard dash likely won't have any benefit to an ultra runner.

[Ombrax]

My back (and my knees and my shoulders, and my elbows, frankly the rest of my body too) has told me that it really doesn't want me to even think about doing Low Pulls.

But if I do want to try sort of thing, they suggest that I do them on the Dyno, not the erg:

[GlennUk]

Agreed with most of what everyone has already shared. As an additional data point:

-For 500 and below I have gradually moved the foot plate up & now have it at the highest hole I can (1). 1/3 of my foot is off the plate entirely. This is unconcerning as I am driving through my heels, which never leave the foot plate.
-My primary focus is on getting a full hip hinge. I only allow my knees to bend as far as they naturally do within the time it takes to achieve full hinge. Usually about 45 degrees.
-Another thing I've recently been experimenting with is a bit of wrist flexion to begin the pull. This helped me hit my recent PB of 1:01.×(1529Watts).

That's really interesting, i find i drive through the balls of my feet and found that having my toes too far off the top of the footplate was detrimental. Do you naturally apply force through the heels or is it something you have practiced for the sprints?

-My primary focus is on getting a full hip hinge. I only allow my knees to bend as far as they naturally do within the time it takes to achieve full hinge. Usually about 45 degrees.

I found when increased my spm to 56 from high 40s (where i set my pb), that the net effect was no difference in pace (arguably slightly slower). I did consider this may be due to insufficient increase in spm, for example if I had managed to get to 60spm would the net effect have been a better pace or would the force I applied be less with reduced knee bend, and cancel the extra spm out?

my recent PB of 1:01.×(1529Watts).

As has been said previously on your previous LP i think, this is just sic!!

As for the the usefulness of improving one's low pull... I think it depends. For somebody focused on the 500m, I think maximal speed plays a huge factor.

IMHO it is uncontroversial to suggest that in anything up to 500m, getting a good start plays a crucial part in achieving ones personal best, whether one needs or wants to do this via the kind of mechanisms you are describing is another matter, in reality I am not sure that there is an alternative if one wants the ideal start.

[btlifter]

Glenn,

As for heels vs balls of feet: from years of powerlifting, applying force through heels is ingrained in me. Surely this is an advantage when sprinting as a higher foot plate allows for less og a moment arm when applying force. I'm unsure if the juice is worth the squeeze for somebody to try to learn that if it doesn't come naturally to them, however. Either way, I do think that maintaining contact with whatever part of your foot you are puahing throigh is crucial in a sprint/start.

As for spm, I think the optimal answer is "simple": as high as possible, while being able to maintain a powerful stroke. Simple doesn't mean easy to determine though. Where the point is that somebody begins sacrificing power to increase rate is - of course - individual. I don't have an answer as to what that number ought to relate to for anybody else.

Presumably, as I'm a naturally hip-dominant (as opppsed to leg-drive dominant) erger, it is easier for me to rate higher without sacrificing power than it would be for somebody whose power relies more heavily on their leg drive.

[GlennUk]

Glenn,

As for heels vs balls of feet: from years of powerlifting, applying force through heels is ingrained in me. Surely this is an advantage when sprinting as a higher foot plate allows for less og a moment arm when applying force. I'm unsure if the juice is worth the squeeze for somebody to try to learn that if it doesn't come naturally to them, however. Either way, I do think that maintaining contact with whatever part of your foot you are puahing throigh is crucial in a sprint/start.

As for spm, I think the optimal answer is "simple": as high as possible, while being able to maintain a powerful stroke. Simple doesn't mean easy to determine though. Where the point is that somebody begins sacrificing power to increase rate is - of course - individual. I don't have an answer as to what that number ought to relate to for anybody else.

Presumably, as I'm a naturally hip-dominant (as opppsed to leg-drive dominant) erger, it is easier for me to rate higher without sacrificing power than it would be for somebody whose power relies more heavily on their leg drive.

Thanks for the observations, really helpful.

I understand the about your comment re the contact point, whatever approach one uses.

I am pretty certain my hinge is a bit rusty and I rely overwhelmingly on my legs to get the power, this would no doubt come across when I DL as well (which i have only recently been doing).

One of the problems i think i suffer with is that if I am not careful, I presume that there is a 'right' approach to getting my best 100m time (not just on the 100m either) and what you are setting out clearly is that whatever works for you, may not for me or others, because our abilities and backgrounds may be very different. So with regards to stroke rates, i have not given up considering whether a higher spm would benefit my times, but i wont get hung up on it either. Experimenting as i did with foot position, DF will be key to making a decision about how to solve my particular problem.

It is really helpful of you, Martin and others to share the benefits of their experiences too (and not just on this thread), for which I, and hopefully others, are truly grateful.

Much appreciated and food for thought for the future.

[MPx]

It is really helpful of you, Martin and others to share the benefits of their experiences too (and not just on this thread), for which I, and hopefully others, are truly grateful.

Hear hear!