Should there be breaks between Pete plan cycles?

[EarthRower]

Hi Everyone!
I discovered rowing late last year and started the Pete plan recently. Despite a COVID break, I just finished my second cycle of the plan. I am a lightweight male (41 yrs, 148 lbs, 5'6''). Compared to my first Pete plan cycle, the same workouts improved a little. For example, for the week 3 speed interval, improved from 1:58.6 to 1:56.8; and for the week 3 endurance interval, improved from 2:03.5 to 2:01.8. My two most recent workouts, the week 3 intervals are as follows:

Is it advisable to continue onto the next cycle of the Pete plan right away? Or is it better to take a break from it to prevent over-training? Thanks for your advice!


Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
15:34.7 4,000m 1:56.8 219 1055 29 170
3:52.5 1,000m 1:56.2 223 1066 30 164
r: 5:00 649m
3:50.9 1,000m 1:55.4 227 1082 29 170
r: 5:00 265m
3:52.9 1,000m 1:56.4 222 1062 29 173
r: 5:00 186m
3:58.3 1,000m 1:59.1 207 1012 30 173
r1,100m


Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
30:28.4 7,500m 2:01.8 193 965 27 173
12:09.4 3,000m 2:01.5 195 970 27 171
r: 5:00 182m
10:07.7 2,500m 2:01.5 195 970 28 175
r: 5:00 71m
8:11.3 2,000m 2:02.8 189 950 28 174
r: 5:00 23m

[GlennUk]

Im not sure what the best advice is, however i would point out that taking a couple of seconds off a split for a given exercise over two cycles sounds like quite a big improvement to me.

Its worth remembering that all athletes need to include some rest, precisely what that looks like and the frequency of those rests will depend form athlete to athlete and the plan they are following.

Finally FWIW, developing the strength and stamina required for improving times, is IMHO a long term project, sure you will improve massively at the start but you can still see improvements in performance many months later with a properly structured plan.

[p_b82]

I don't follow the plan, but I think the more important thing is to make sure you have the right rest between the rowing sessions, rather than the cycles.

If you find the plan enjoyable to follow, then keep at it and keep going, if you want a break to do something less structured, or a different structure then do so - I guess it depends on what your long term aims are, and what part of the plan you find more/less enjoyable to complete.

(I hate intervals, and while I know that I would see significant gains, I just can't bring myself to the erg to do them as an enjoyable exercise - thus I don't do them; so most/all plans for me are out the window as they are included in them all - that, and I like just doing what I feel like on the day)

[Elizabeth]

The improvements that you're seeing are good! I ran it for maybe 9 cycles, and was down to dropping 0.2 seconds off my splits towards the end.

I personally ran one 3-week cycle per month, but not for overtraining reasons. Some of the "off" weeks involved trips out of town without the erg, but with a lot of running or hiking. Others involved things like the C2 Marathon/Century Challenge in May, or hitting the Cross-Team Challenge early in the week then doing a 30r20 later in the week to see what those were all about. Plus some races and corresponding tapers.

Do you feel like you need an easy week? I think that's the real question.

[btlifter]

I think Elizabeth hit the nail on the head when she asked if you felt like you needed an easy week.

I did PP for several consecutive months a couple years ago. Great plan. Eventually though, I was beginning to dread the workouts, knowing I'd be in a dog fight to complete them faster than last time. After a couple weeks of that feeling I knew it was time to move on.

IMO, as long as you're still looking forward to the workouts and feeling good - keep thr ball rolling! Once it begins to feel like a slog, take a step back and make some adjustments.

[MPx]

Exactly this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[EarthRower]

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. I like your approach of listening to one's body and mind and adjusting training plans accordingly.

As a short and LWT male, my goal is to improve my general fitness and compete with myself. The Pete plan has so far produced good results for me. My 10k steady-state row (including warm up) was at 2:17.9 pace and 156 bpm average heart rate. Two Pete plan cycles later, I am at 2:15.9, and 145 bpm. I think I am still getting the beginner's gain.

I will keep the plan going until I am tired of it or it no longer produces improvement. The only thing that I will change is to put the two interval days on day 1 and day 4, and do 1 hour UT2 steady state on the other four days. So only two hard sessions per week, instead of three.

[Elizabeth]

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. I like your approach of listening to one's body and mind and adjusting training plans accordingly.

As a short and LWT male, my goal is to improve my general fitness and compete with myself. The Pete plan has so far produced good results for me. My 10k steady-state row (including warm up) was at 2:17.9 pace and 156 bpm average heart rate. Two Pete plan cycles later, I am at 2:15.9, and 145 bpm. I think I am still getting the beginner's gain.

I will keep the plan going until I am tired of it or it no longer produces improvement. The only thing that I will change is to put the two interval days on day 1 and day 4, and do 1 hour UT2 steady state on the other four days. So only two hard sessions per week, instead of three.

You're wearing a heart rate monitor - do you know your max HR? Your steady state heart rate seems higher than I would expect, and your splits faster than I would expect, based solely on the other interval data that you've posted. My steady state pace is ballpark 25 splits slower than one of my Pete's Plan 4x1000/5:00r. Pete says, "Resist the temptation to row these [steady state pieces] too hard though, save that for the other three days." You will likely be able to keep progressing longer at the hard stuff if you take the easy stuff easier.

[EarthRower]

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. I like your approach of listening to one's body and mind and adjusting training plans accordingly.

As a short and LWT male, my goal is to improve my general fitness and compete with myself. The Pete plan has so far produced good results for me. My 10k steady-state row (including warm up) was at 2:17.9 pace and 156 bpm average heart rate. Two Pete plan cycles later, I am at 2:15.9, and 145 bpm. I think I am still getting the beginner's gain.

I will keep the plan going until I am tired of it or it no longer produces improvement. The only thing that I will change is to put the two interval days on day 1 and day 4, and do 1 hour UT2 steady state on the other four days. So only two hard sessions per week, instead of three.

You're wearing a heart rate monitor - do you know your max HR? Your steady state heart rate seems higher than I would expect, and your splits faster than I would expect, based solely on the other interval data that you've posted. My steady state pace is ballpark 25 splits slower than one of my Pete's Plan 4x1000/5:00r. Pete says, "Resist the temptation to row these [steady state pieces] too hard though, save that for the other three days." You will likely be able to keep progressing longer at the hard stuff if you take the easy stuff easier.

I wear a Garmin heart rate strap when I row. I don't know my true max HR on the Erg because I have never pushed myself that hard on it. My resting HR fluctuates between 45 and 52 as measured by Apple watch. My highest HR on the stationary bike is 184 bpm, which might be close to my max HR within a few beats (I did not attempt to test for max HR). However, max HR on the Erg might be different from that on the bike.

When I do my steady state, I row at 17 - 18 stroke/min at 96-98 drag factor. For my most recent 60 min row including warm up, my pace was 2:17.3. My average heart rate was 143 bpm, which drifted up to 153 bpm at maximal. The session felt mildly hard, but I still could have short conversations and I breathed through my nostrils. After 1 hour, I felt I could keep going if I got the time. I row empty stomach first thing in the morning and my first meal is lunch. It seems this level of intensity doesn't bother me, and I have high energy during the morning without eating.

It seems there are two schools about steady state training for rowing and I wonder what your thought is. One is to really keep it at HR Zone 2 based on heart rate. The other is what I heard from Travis Gardner (https://youtu.be/N-5cMfkDMf8), who argues that for rowing, the steady state should be based on perceived effort, and one shouldn't be bothered by HR. He suggests that rowing requires power/strength and steady state training should maintain high power per stroke at a low stroke rate. Due to this requirement, the HR will drift way above Zone 2 in steady state rowing.

[Dangerscouse]

It seems there are two schools about steady state training for rowing and I wonder what your thought is. One is to really keep it at HR Zone 2 based on heart rate. The other is what I heard from Travis Gardner (https://youtu.be/N-5cMfkDMf8), who argues that for rowing, the steady state should be based on perceived effort, and one shouldn't be bothered by HR. He suggests that rowing requires power/strength and steady state training should maintain high power per stroke at a low stroke rate. Due to this requirement, the HR will drift way above Zone 2 in steady state rowing.

I combine a bit of both as I've played around with different strategies and found what works for me.

I quite often row depending on how I feel on any given day, and that includes stroke rate and pace. I do like perceived effort (RPE) but I've seen too many moments where it may feel like 70-73% but HR is up at, say, 78-80% and vice versa, so I'm happy to use them interchangeably.

My one suggestion is to try and do similar sessions, so you've got something to compare against. You'll struggle to know what's broadly working, or what isn't, if they're all very different.

[nick rockliff]

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. I like your approach of listening to one's body and mind and adjusting training plans accordingly.

As a short and LWT male, my goal is to improve my general fitness and compete with myself. The Pete plan has so far produced good results for me. My 10k steady-state row (including warm up) was at 2:17.9 pace and 156 bpm average heart rate. Two Pete plan cycles later, I am at 2:15.9, and 145 bpm. I think I am still getting the beginner's gain.

I will keep the plan going until I am tired of it or it no longer produces improvement. The only thing that I will change is to put the two interval days on day 1 and day 4, and do 1 hour UT2 steady state on the other four days. So only two hard sessions per week, instead of three.

You're wearing a heart rate monitor - do you know your max HR? Your steady state heart rate seems higher than I would expect, and your splits faster than I would expect, based solely on the other interval data that you've posted. My steady state pace is ballpark 25 splits slower than one of my Pete's Plan 4x1000/5:00r. Pete says, "Resist the temptation to row these [steady state pieces] too hard though, save that for the other three days." You will likely be able to keep progressing longer at the hard stuff if you take the easy stuff easier.

I wear a Garmin heart rate strap when I row. I don't know my true max HR on the Erg because I have never pushed myself that hard on it. My resting HR fluctuates between 45 and 52 as measured by Apple watch. My highest HR on the stationary bike is 184 bpm, which might be close to my max HR within a few beats (I did not attempt to test for max HR). However, max HR on the Erg might be different from that on the bike.

When I do my steady state, I row at 17 - 18 stroke/min at 96-98 drag factor. For my most recent 60 min row including warm up, my pace was 2:17.3. My average heart rate was 143 bpm, which drifted up to 153 bpm at maximal. The session felt mildly hard, but I still could have short conversations and I breathed through my nostrils. After 1 hour, I felt I could keep going if I got the time. I row empty stomach first thing in the morning and my first meal is lunch. It seems this level of intensity doesn't bother me, and I have high energy during the morning without eating.

It seems there are two schools about steady state training for rowing and I wonder what your thought is. One is to really keep it at HR Zone 2 based on heart rate. The other is what I heard from Travis Gardner (https://youtu.be/N-5cMfkDMf8), who argues that for rowing, the steady state should be based on perceived effort, and one shouldn't be bothered by HR. He suggests that rowing requires power/strength and steady state training should maintain high power per stroke at a low stroke rate. Due to this requirement, the HR will drift way above Zone 2 in steady state rowing.

Good video and I agree with everything he says.

[aussie nick]

You're wearing a heart rate monitor - do you know your max HR? Your steady state heart rate seems higher than I would expect, and your splits faster than I would expect, based solely on the other interval data that you've posted. My steady state pace is ballpark 25 splits slower than one of my Pete's Plan 4x1000/5:00r. Pete says, "Resist the temptation to row these [steady state pieces] too hard though, save that for the other three days." You will likely be able to keep progressing longer at the hard stuff if you take the easy stuff easier.

I wear a Garmin heart rate strap when I row. I don't know my true max HR on the Erg because I have never pushed myself that hard on it. My resting HR fluctuates between 45 and 52 as measured by Apple watch. My highest HR on the stationary bike is 184 bpm, which might be close to my max HR within a few beats (I did not attempt to test for max HR). However, max HR on the Erg might be different from that on the bike.

When I do my steady state, I row at 17 - 18 stroke/min at 96-98 drag factor. For my most recent 60 min row including warm up, my pace was 2:17.3. My average heart rate was 143 bpm, which drifted up to 153 bpm at maximal. The session felt mildly hard, but I still could have short conversations and I breathed through my nostrils. After 1 hour, I felt I could keep going if I got the time. I row empty stomach first thing in the morning and my first meal is lunch. It seems this level of intensity doesn't bother me, and I have high energy during the morning without eating.

It seems there are two schools about steady state training for rowing and I wonder what your thought is. One is to really keep it at HR Zone 2 based on heart rate. The other is what I heard from Travis Gardner (https://youtu.be/N-5cMfkDMf8), who argues that for rowing, the steady state should be based on perceived effort, and one shouldn't be bothered by HR. He suggests that rowing requires power/strength and steady state training should maintain high power per stroke at a low stroke rate. Due to this requirement, the HR will drift way above Zone 2 in steady state rowing.

Good video and I agree with everything he says.

that video certainly strikes a very powerful chord with my own steady state 'journey', where after trial and error based partly on results and partly on enjoyment, I've moved back towards fewer, more powerful strokes and a HR that rises a little above the % that would be prescribed.

Nick, there's one part of what he says that I would be interested in your pov/experience with. To be fair, it's hinted rather than explicit and he doesn't go into detail on it so I might be hearing something that isn't there. Gardner seems to be suggesting that during our steady state, we drop our drag factor to a level where we can ensure we generate a lot of speed in our stroke.

Speed is relative and we could all generate more leg speed at 80 than 180 drag and most of us use a different drag for a 500m tt than a 60min. So I'm guessing there's a sliding scale of usefulness. I'm interested in how much you have learned/adapted to vary your drag over the years? I've got access to a few high performance heavyweight rower's C2 logs where they are doing steady state on 90 or 100 and time trials/intervals far higher and others where the variance is far lower. I'm currently in the latter camp...doing ss and longer distance time trials at 120-25, a 2k or distance intervals at approx 135 and say a 1k or sprint interval piece at 145 but am open to changing and adapting.

I'm not asking for prescriptions, but you've been rowing at such a high level for such a long time that I'm interested in what test and learn periods you've been through and what conclusions you've drawn for your own training in terms of varying drag at different rowing intensities?

[EarthRower]

I wear a Garmin heart rate strap when I row. I don't know my true max HR on the Erg because I have never pushed myself that hard on it. My resting HR fluctuates between 45 and 52 as measured by Apple watch. My highest HR on the stationary bike is 184 bpm, which might be close to my max HR within a few beats (I did not attempt to test for max HR). However, max HR on the Erg might be different from that on the bike.

When I do my steady state, I row at 17 - 18 stroke/min at 96-98 drag factor. For my most recent 60 min row including warm up, my pace was 2:17.3. My average heart rate was 143 bpm, which drifted up to 153 bpm at maximal. The session felt mildly hard, but I still could have short conversations and I breathed through my nostrils. After 1 hour, I felt I could keep going if I got the time. I row empty stomach first thing in the morning and my first meal is lunch. It seems this level of intensity doesn't bother me, and I have high energy during the morning without eating.

It seems there are two schools about steady state training for rowing and I wonder what your thought is. One is to really keep it at HR Zone 2 based on heart rate. The other is what I heard from Travis Gardner (https://youtu.be/N-5cMfkDMf8), who argues that for rowing, the steady state should be based on perceived effort, and one shouldn't be bothered by HR. He suggests that rowing requires power/strength and steady state training should maintain high power per stroke at a low stroke rate. Due to this requirement, the HR will drift way above Zone 2 in steady state rowing.

Good video and I agree with everything he says.

that video certainly strikes a very powerful chord with my own steady state 'journey', where after trial and error based partly on results and partly on enjoyment, I've moved back towards fewer, more powerful strokes and a HR that rises a little above the % that would be prescribed.

Nick, there's one part of what he says that I would be interested in your pov/experience with. To be fair, it's hinted rather than explicit and he doesn't go into detail on it so I might be hearing something that isn't there. Gardner seems to be suggesting that during our steady state, we drop our drag factor to a level where we can ensure we generate a lot of speed in our stroke.

Speed is relative and we could all generate more leg speed at 80 than 180 drag and most of us use a different drag for a 500m tt than a 60min. So I'm guessing there's a sliding scale of usefulness. I'm interested in how much you have learned/adapted to vary your drag over the years? I've got access to a few high performance heavyweight rower's C2 logs where they are doing steady state on 90 or 100 and time trials/intervals far higher and others where the variance is far lower. I'm currently in the latter camp...doing ss and longer distance time trials at 120-25, a 2k or distance intervals at approx 135 and say a 1k or sprint interval piece at 145 but am open to changing and adapting.

I'm not asking for prescriptions, but you've been rowing at such a high level for such a long time that I'm interested in what test and learn periods you've been through and what conclusions you've drawn for your own training in terms of varying drag at different rowing intensities?

Here is another video from Gardner about UT2 drag factor. At 6:50, he said his UT2 drag factor is between 80 and 90, and his 2k drag factor is 118. https://youtu.be/ALe3rHBIp7g

[Sakly]

Speed is relative and we could all generate more leg speed at 80 than 180 drag and most of us use a different drag for a 500m tt than a 60min. So I'm guessing there's a sliding scale of usefulness.
[...]
doing ss and longer distance time trials at 120-25, a 2k or distance intervals at approx 135 and say a 1k or sprint interval piece at 145 but am open to changing and adapting.

I am not rowing at a high level (compared to elite) and a relative newbee, but already got some experience and also some links to the physics behind.
Drag factor and rate are kind of linked together when it comes to "feel the stroke". If I rate higher than a lower damper feels to light as I pick up earlier when the flywheel is moving fast, so I increase the setting. This applies for 2k and distances below, where I rate at least 30. If the rate drops the flywheel has more time to slow down, so a higher drag feels much heavier when you pick up at the catch. Reducing drag makes the feeling at the catch comparable to the higher rate at higher drag.
I try to maintain a hard and fast stroke at my steady states on a lower drag with low rate to be able to use this stroke at higher rates with higher drag (as it feels the same due to faster moving flywheel).

Hope that makes sense.

[nick rockliff]

I wear a Garmin heart rate strap when I row. I don't know my true max HR on the Erg because I have never pushed myself that hard on it. My resting HR fluctuates between 45 and 52 as measured by Apple watch. My highest HR on the stationary bike is 184 bpm, which might be close to my max HR within a few beats (I did not attempt to test for max HR). However, max HR on the Erg might be different from that on the bike.

When I do my steady state, I row at 17 - 18 stroke/min at 96-98 drag factor. For my most recent 60 min row including warm up, my pace was 2:17.3. My average heart rate was 143 bpm, which drifted up to 153 bpm at maximal. The session felt mildly hard, but I still could have short conversations and I breathed through my nostrils. After 1 hour, I felt I could keep going if I got the time. I row empty stomach first thing in the morning and my first meal is lunch. It seems this level of intensity doesn't bother me, and I have high energy during the morning without eating.

It seems there are two schools about steady state training for rowing and I wonder what your thought is. One is to really keep it at HR Zone 2 based on heart rate. The other is what I heard from Travis Gardner (https://youtu.be/N-5cMfkDMf8), who argues that for rowing, the steady state should be based on perceived effort, and one shouldn't be bothered by HR. He suggests that rowing requires power/strength and steady state training should maintain high power per stroke at a low stroke rate. Due to this requirement, the HR will drift way above Zone 2 in steady state rowing.

Good video and I agree with everything he says.

that video certainly strikes a very powerful chord with my own steady state 'journey', where after trial and error based partly on results and partly on enjoyment, I've moved back towards fewer, more powerful strokes and a HR that rises a little above the % that would be prescribed.

Nick, there's one part of what he says that I would be interested in your pov/experience with. To be fair, it's hinted rather than explicit and he doesn't go into detail on it so I might be hearing something that isn't there. Gardner seems to be suggesting that during our steady state, we drop our drag factor to a level where we can ensure we generate a lot of speed in our stroke.

Speed is relative and we could all generate more leg speed at 80 than 180 drag and most of us use a different drag for a 500m tt than a 60min. So I'm guessing there's a sliding scale of usefulness. I'm interested in how much you have learned/adapted to vary your drag over the years? I've got access to a few high performance heavyweight rower's C2 logs where they are doing steady state on 90 or 100 and time trials/intervals far higher and others where the variance is far lower. I'm currently in the latter camp...doing ss and longer distance time trials at 120-25, a 2k or distance intervals at approx 135 and say a 1k or sprint interval piece at 145 but am open to changing and adapting.

I'm not asking for prescriptions, but you've been rowing at such a high level for such a long time that I'm interested in what test and learn periods you've been through and what conclusions you've drawn for your own training in terms of varying drag at different rowing intensities?

Nick, I always use a DF of 123, have used this since I got my own D back in early 2005. I don't change it at all. I don't do sprint distances like 100m and 500m and rarely 1000m.

I know what he means about connecting at the catch to accelerate the flywheel, this is why I don't have music playing in my ears because you need to listen to the flywheel to make sure the stroke is spot on.

He is also right about a one zone fits all, it doesn't.

When I was doing strict HR training 95% would have been UT2, UT1 and AT. The shorter TR and AN sessions would only be done during the 4 to 5 weeks before a race and UT2 dropped completely during that time.

All sessions would be HR capped not average HR for a session. UT1 and AT sessions would overlap but UT2 would always be strict.

For UT2 I would rate at 20, UT1 rate would be 22 to 26 with AT sessions 24 to 28 all depending on the format of the session.

The key for me was finding the correct HR values for each zone. Generic % of max HR would have been miles off for me.