Can I extrapolate 100m performance for 500m in terms of DF and spm?

[Laaban]

I'm trying to figure out the optimal foot placement, stroke length, spm and DF for a 500m sprint.

Can it be determined by trying 100m sprints or do I simply have to bang out 500s with different settings to find the sweet spot for 500m?

If you happen to know a better method, please let me know!

[btlifter]

Short answer: no.

500m has an aerobic component that can't be predicted via the 100s pure ATP system.

500m will typically have a *slightly* longer stroke length and a little lower spm, but individual differences are substantial.

For foot placement, both will be higher than a 2k. I do prefer feet in the same place for both the 100m and 500m (as high as I can get them), but some prefer higher feet in the 100 than the 500.

Similarly, I use the samw drag for both, but not all do.

[MPx]

IMO it will depend a bit on your relative power. If you are extremely powerful then you may be able to sustain very high or max DF through 500. I'm not powerful enough to do that. So I use max DF for a 100 - on my m/c ~210, but for 1min go down to the 180s. For 500 DF in the 160s, foot placement 1 hole higher than normal, rate around 48. Plan to hold finish time -2 for300, decay to pace through the next 100 and hang on as best as possible over the last 100 - but likely to fade very badly over the last stroke or two.

Many do it differently so you will just have to experiment to see what works for you...

[GlennUk]

As others have said the answer i sno.

I have been working on my 100m pb for the past 3 months doing nothing else, been using DF200-225, experimenting with different values. I am trying slightly lower DFs to try to reduce time to ge tup to max speed, so it was set at 190 when i didn a 500m for this months CTC.

Whilst i completed, it was a real struggle and i will reduce further for tomorrow final 500m trial.

I think the point is that the events are completely different in terms of the demands on your body and if you can pull 220 for 500m and PB, then its likley you could pull much more for the 100m successfully and do the same.

JMHO

[jamesg]

I'm trying to figure out the optimal foot placement, stroke length, spm and DF for a 500m sprint.

My 500/100 Power ratio is around 250/370 = 0.67. The Ranked Workouts in logbook can show others' ratios.

So a possible approach could be take your 100m Watt level, and (first time) work the 500 at say 70% or whatever suits you. Power is visible all the time on PM, and any style or other adjustments show immediately. The dead start is always slow, so we can let the average increase for the entire duration; if fade appears, push your rate up whatever for the last ten strokes.

I find drag of little importance, so long as it lets me pull as hard as iI can, which is not very, around 450N on 85 df.

High feet can destroy your catch posture, causing a slow catch and knee injury. The 500 is no different to 2k as to settings. Just leave out the central 1500.

[btlifter]

I'm trying to figure out the optimal foot placement, stroke length, spm and DF for a 500m sprint.

High feet can destroy your catch posture, causing a slow catch and knee injury. The 500 is no different to 2k as to settings. Just leave out the central 1500.

^Every elite 500m rower I know would disagree with this statement.

[jamesg]

It applies mostly to beginners who bring their feet too near the stretcher, closing the knee angle. It's a risk, not a certainty, which can only increase with increased loads and incorrect posture.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, I hope so; you will know:
https://nyboneandjoint.com/blog/4-easy- ... g-weights/

[btlifter]

It applies mostly to beginners who bring their feet too near the stretcher, closing the knee angle. It's a risk, not a certainty, which can only increase with increased loads and incorrect posture.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, I hope so; you will know:
https://nyboneandjoint.com/blog/4-easy- ... g-weights/

This highlights the importance of differentiating sprinting from 2k & above. For the best time, strokes will necessarily be much shorter on a 500m than a longer TT, mostly via reduced knee-bending. This less aggressive knee-angle is what allows for a higher foot-positioning to be safely used.

[Laaban]

I'm trying to figure out the optimal foot placement, stroke length, spm and DF for a 500m sprint.

My 500/100 Power ratio is around 250/370 = 0.67. The Ranked Workouts in logbook can show others' ratios.

Can I see the DF used from the logbooks somehow?

[Sakly]

I'm trying to figure out the optimal foot placement, stroke length, spm and DF for a 500m sprint.

My 500/100 Power ratio is around 250/370 = 0.67. The Ranked Workouts in logbook can show others' ratios.

Can I see the DF used from the logbooks somehow?

Every row which was logged with ergdata (probably also with other apps) shows DF in the logbook.

[Laaban]

Every row which was logged with ergdata (probably also with other apps) shows DF in the logbook.

I assume I have to be "training partners" with them in order to see the details?

[Dangerscouse]

I assume I have to be "training partners" with them in order to see the details?

I wouldn't get caught up with trying to compare DFs with other rowers if that's what you're trying to do. It's only a means to make you most efficient, so that can be different for you compared to others.

I don't know of other rowers changing the DF by much for a 500m. Maybe it's increased by 20-30, but that's about it. I'm sure there are outliers who'll increase it by more, but that's what I have seen

[Tsnor]

Every row which was logged with ergdata (probably also with other apps) shows DF in the logbook.

I assume I have to be "training partners" with them in order to see the details?

No, not at all. The log owner just needs to give log permission.

Lets explore Sascha's log (Sackly's log). His log is public, listed in his signature and here: https://log.concept2.com/profile/1580803/log

When you click the link you see a workout list. When you click the magnifying glass icon in the "action" column on the right of each workout entry you see more details of the workout. In the detail page you can see that Sascha's DF was 124 for his 10K on Jan 2. I tend to keep my DF in the 115-120 range.

DF is personal preference. Lower is claimed to be less injury prone, though not a ton of evidence. Studies show Lower and Higher DF have the same training effect. Some people use a slightly higher drag factor for short sprints (100M, 500M), and they often short stroke those effort to get very high rates which keeps the flywheel spinning making the torque at the catch easier (less inertia effect).

[MPx]

I assume I have to be "training partners" with them in order to see the details?

No, you dont need to be a training partner, it depends on the security they apply to their log. Some people make them private so you wont be able to see them. Some (like me) have the log open to anyone signed in - so some protection from the bots but pretty open. And some are open to all. Some put a link to their log in their sig. I'd suggest that if you want to see any... just pm the person and ask - they can send you a link or their ID number so that you can look it up.

[Laaban]

I assume I have to be "training partners" with them in order to see the details?

I wouldn't get caught up with trying to compare DFs with other rowers if that's what you're trying to do. It's only a means to make you most efficient, so that can be different for you compared to others.

I agree, generally speaking. I would only be interested in the relative differences between 100m and 500m DFs with experienced heavy-weight sprinters.