Zones for 5k test

[matt]

I have a 5k test coming up and I have done 20 minute tests before at various rate (now doing 20 minutes at 1:49 average, r28).
For the 5k test, what I am guessing it that I cannot sustain VO2 max for 20 minutes, even if I wanted to. So which zones should I target during the 5k? E.g. should I erg a Threshold (Zond 3) for the first 4k, then VO2 (Zone 4) max for the last 1k, and Anaerobic (Zone 5) during the last 300m? Which zoning strategy is most efficient and leads to fastest 5k?

[Tony Cook]

I have a 5k test coming up and I have done 20 minute tests before at various rate (now doing 20 minutes at 1:49 average, r28).
For the 5k test, what I am guessing it that I cannot sustain VO2 max for 20 minutes, even if I wanted to. So which zones should I target during the 5k? E.g. should I erg a Threshold (Zond 3) for the first 4k, then VO2 (Zone 4) max for the last 1k, and Anaerobic (Zone 5) during the last 300m? Which zoning strategy is most efficient and leads to fastest 5k?

I’ve not heard of anyone basing a TT on a Zone. For a TT you will be hitting your max HR towards the end and so will go through every zone. It’s about the pace you can hold for duration.
Your fitness will determine how long you can hold that max HR at the end. Hit it too early and you will ‘die’ and either not finish or jog over the line. Hit it too late and you will left some seconds in the erg.
You have a decent 1:49 pace in the bag, how does that feel? What have you got left in the tank? Sounds like you can go quicker than that but how much quicker depends on other factors you have not included.

[Ombrax]

Welcome to the forum.

I'm no racer, so take this with a grain of salt, but I thought that for this sort of test most people base their effort on pace, not a specific HR zone, using information like your 20 min at 1:49 data.

Edit: I see Tony beat me to it, as far as the use of HR to choose effort on a test.

Depending on how much time you have until the test, how about doing some experiments, for example how about going with negative splits, starting at say, 1:49 for the first 1k, then 1:48, 1:47, etc, and for the last 1k giving it all you have. Based on how that goes you can tweak things as required.

[Tsnor]

HR zones don't work for a race. The couple of minutes lag to get your HR to match your effort level would mess you up badly. You'd go out way too hard then die. (HR zones good for training)

Pace (splits) and race strategy are critical.

For 5K race strategy maybe use 3-5 strokes to get to pace. Hold constant pace from then until 4K, then see if you have a bit more. Sprint at 200m (last 15-20 strokes). Avoid "fly and die", avoid going out too fast - better to need to increase pace at 3K or 4K. If you want to fine tune your race strategy look at this thread for posts from Mike Caviston: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=326

For Pace if you have enough lead time before your 5K test then do a 5K at you best guess of your 5K time 1:46 or 1:48 or whatever and see how it works for you. Picking that pace is critical, you can't use the feedback from the first 5 mins to change it -- you'll go too fast and die.

If you have a good 2K or 10K result you can predict 5K pace from either of them to get a starting pace.

If the results of the 5K test are important to you then do some prep like:
1. taper a week before (1:49 for 20 mins says you are rowing now. Week before cut duration in 1/2, keep same intensity).
2. get tons of sleep night before
3. at the test: set drag factor. warm up at least 10 mins to get muscles warm, then rest for about 5 mins to reload anaerobic.

Please post what you ended up doing and how it worked out for you.

[jamesg]

Which zoning strategy is most efficient and leads to fastest 5k?

If you have a target time, stay slower for the first 4k, then have fun.

However, you've displayed a problem. "Zoning", presumably HR controlled, may be fine for training, but racing?

If you have no specific target, you'll need to calculate it based on experience and logbook data.

In racing we can only use the stroke we have trained, adjusting the rating as necessary. The stroke is defined by Watts/Rating. So use YOUR stroke, which if you can hold 1:49 (270W at 28 = 10) must be a good one, starting fastish to finish warm up, cool it for 3-4k then go.

[aussie nick]

HR zones don't work for a race. The couple of minutes lag to get your HR to match your effort level would mess you up badly. You'd go out way too hard then die. (HR zones good for training)

Pace (splits) and race strategy are critical.

For 5K race strategy maybe use 3-5 strokes to get to pace. Hold constant pace from then until 4K, then see if you have a bit more. Sprint at 200m (last 15-20 strokes). Avoid "fly and die", avoid going out too fast - better to need to increase pace at 3K or 4K. If you want to fine tune your race strategy look at this thread for posts from Mike Caviston: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=326

For Pace if you have enough lead time before your 5K test then do a 5K at you best guess of your 5K time 1:46 or 1:48 or whatever and see how it works for you. Picking that pace is critical, you can't use the feedback from the first 5 mins to change it -- you'll go too fast and die.

If you have a good 2K or 10K result you can predict 5K pace from either of them to get a starting pace.

If the results of the 5K test are important to you then do some prep like:
1. taper a week before (1:49 for 20 mins says you are rowing now. Week before cut duration in 1/2, keep same intensity).
2. get tons of sleep night before
3. at the test: set drag factor. warm up at least 10 mins to get muscles warm, then rest for about 5 mins to reload anaerobic.

Please post what you ended up doing and how it worked out for you.

thanks for the share of that link - incredibly interesting and informative

[matt]

Thanks for all those replies. The 5k test has been postponed to another weekend, and my training plan has loads of Zone 1 (2.02-2:16) ergs in it, e.g 3x25 minutes, rate 20, or 2x30 minutes, rate 20, almost every day, apart from weekends, which are on the water. What I wonder is, why, if I am going through all the zones in a 5k test, is my training mostly in Zone 1? I am sometimes doing race pieces on the water on the weekends, but during the week, it's zone 1 on the erg. I suppose the 5k test is 10% zone 1, 20% zone 2 and the majority zone 3-4, last 100 meter zone 5 (purely anaerobic)? So it does not make sense to me to mostly train in zone 1, although I have heard it so many times that "one needs to go slow in training in order to go fast in a race". Did I misunderstand something?

[Tony Cook]

Thanks for all those replies. The 5k test has been postponed to another weekend, and my training plan has loads of Zone 1 (2.02-2:16) ergs in it, e.g 3x25 minutes, rate 20, or 2x30 minutes, rate 20, almost every day, apart from weekends, which are on the water. What I wonder is, why, if I am going through all the zones in a 5k test, is my training mostly in Zone 1? I am sometimes doing race pieces on the water on the weekends, but during the week, it's zone 1 on the erg. I suppose the 5k test is 10% zone 1, 20% zone 2 and the majority zone 3-4, last 100 meter zone 5 (purely anaerobic)? So it does not make sense to me to mostly train in zone 1, although I have heard it so many times that "one needs to go slow in training in order to go fast in a race". Did I misunderstand something?

Your training should be 80% in the aerobic base zones - sorry I don’t use ‘zones’ but looks like that is zones 1 and 2. The other training is at the higher heart rates and usually interval training e.g. 4 x 2k probably zone 4 and shorter, sharper 8 x 500 hitting max HR.
You may be doing this with your training as the erg work is your 80% and the OTW race pieces are the interval pieces.
For a TT you need the aerobic capacity to row at pace for the duration. The longer intervals gives you the ability to hold a faster pace and higher rate for a time, and the mental toughness to ‘dig in’ and maintain hard work to the end. The short intervals develop pace and getting the fast twitch fibres firing up for that sprint finish. It all comes together in a 5k TT.
You could easily row 5k at 20 SPM at 2:00 pace - 20 mins. For the TT you will up your rating to 26-28 SPM and hold a faster pace for less time 18, 19 mins? Without the lots of slower metres you wouldn’t have the ‘puff’ and fizzle out at 12-15 mins. Without the longer interval training you wouldn’t be used to the harder pace and rating and slow down.

[Tsnor]

Thanks for all those replies. The 5k test has been postponed to another weekend, and my training plan has loads of Zone 1 (2.02-2:16) ergs in it, e.g 3x25 minutes, rate 20, or 2x30 minutes, rate 20, almost every day, apart from weekends, which are on the water. What I wonder is, why, if I am going through all the zones in a 5k test, is my training mostly in Zone 1? I am sometimes doing race pieces on the water on the weekends, but during the week, it's zone 1 on the erg. I suppose the 5k test is 10% zone 1, 20% zone 2 and the majority zone 3-4, last 100 meter zone 5 (purely anaerobic)? So it does not make sense to me to mostly train in zone 1, although I have heard it so many times that "one needs to go slow in training in order to go fast in a race". Did I misunderstand something?

Oddly, the best way to train for a race is *not* at race pace. People who focus on race pace are slower than those who don't.

This short video does a great job of explaining why your training is mostly zone 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I

If after watching it you get interested, post. The science has evolved a bit but essentially all endurance athletes follow some form of "tons of long-slow". The videos your coaches watch from USROWING are also online if you want to see how coaches are taught.

[jamesg]

So it does not make sense to me to mostly train in zone 1, although I have heard it so many times that "one needs to go slow in training in order to go fast in a race". Did I misunderstand something?

If Zone 1 is

(2.02-2:16) ergs in it, e.g 3x25 minutes, rate 20, or 2x30 minutes, rate 20

you are training your stroke at 10W level.

The Work (10W) gives speed. The Distance (15k) gives endurance. You can always race at higher rating, using roughly he same stroke; after all, why would you change style, length and handle force, when you've spent so much time training them, and all you need do is change the rating?

[matt]

Ok, finally got the 5k done at 18:05, 79kg, 27spm.
Trained a lot in “zone 1” for it (2:05-2:10).

[Tony Cook]

Ok, finally got the 5k done at 18:05, 79kg, 27spm.
Trained a lot in “zone 1” for it (2:05-2:10).

Good effort. 18’ for a 5k is no slouch.
Of course, you’ll have to do another one in a couple of weeks just to knock those 5 seconds off!

[dabatey]

HR zones don't work for a race. The couple of minutes lag to get your HR to match your effort level would mess you up badly. You'd go out way too hard then die. (HR zones good for training)

Pace (splits) and race strategy are critical.

For 5K race strategy maybe use 3-5 strokes to get to pace. Hold constant pace from then until 4K, then see if you have a bit more. Sprint at 200m (last 15-20 strokes). Avoid "fly and die", avoid going out too fast - better to need to increase pace at 3K or 4K. If you want to fine tune your race strategy look at this thread for posts from Mike Caviston: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=326

For Pace if you have enough lead time before your 5K test then do a 5K at you best guess of your 5K time 1:46 or 1:48 or whatever and see how it works for you. Picking that pace is critical, you can't use the feedback from the first 5 mins to change it -- you'll go too fast and die.

If you have a good 2K or 10K result you can predict 5K pace from either of them to get a starting pace.

If the results of the 5K test are important to you then do some prep like:
1. taper a week before (1:49 for 20 mins says you are rowing now. Week before cut duration in 1/2, keep same intensity).
2. get tons of sleep night before
3. at the test: set drag factor. warm up at least 10 mins to get muscles warm, then rest for about 5 mins to reload anaerobic.

Please post what you ended up doing and how it worked out for you.

thanks for the share of that link - incredibly interesting and informative

Another kudos/bump for that thread link if anyone missed it.

[Nomath]

Ok, finally got the 5k done at 18:05, 79kg, 27spm.
Trained a lot in “zone 1” for it (2:05-2:10).

Very interested to hear what strategy you used. Flat/positive/negative split strategy or HR zones?

I didn't join the discussion previously, but I would absolutely recommend a strategy based on HR zones, further refined by controlling the rate at which the HR increases in time. HR is the best monitor of what the effort does inside your body.

I know from my own PB attempts that I can go at 90-100% of HRmax for about 10 mins and very close to HRmax for 1 min. Also aiming for 80% of HRmax within 4 mins. This always results in negative 1K splits in a 5K.

[matt]

Ok, so this was my first proper 5k test. I did a 4x5 minutes with 90s econds rest at rates 20/22/24/26 a few days before the 5k. This gave me a 1:48.4 average split. From this, I should have my target, said my coach.

At the 5k test, I went hard for 5-10 strokes, then settled for about 1:49-1:48. Held that and felt pretty tired already with 3000m to go. I took it up a notch a few times to 1:46-1:47, to match the guy next to me, who was faster, but at 500m I became so tired I struggled to hold it at 1:51. Coaches were screaming at me from left and right to take up the rate, so I managed somehow to finish the last few hundred meters at rate 40, split 1:45. Felt very, very tired afterwards.

Now I am training even more in "zone 1" slow regime, for the next test. I watched the Ted Talk, how most endurance athletes are essentially just plodding along in their training. It makes sense. Our body cannot recover from daily hard training sessions, it makes sense.

What I am not sure about is the position my feet should be in the foot stretcher, so the distance between the heels and the lowest part of the seat. I tried various ones, and my coach says I always over-reach at the catch, on the erg, and not in the boat.

But in the boat, some people spend half an hour adjusting their footstretcher, slides, heels I don't know what, I have no clue what they are doing. Where/how can I learn how to adjust the erg/boat so to keep good posture and not overreach while being able to take a good catch?