Beginners question(s)?

[Willy.VdW]

Is this the right place to ask about rowing technique?

[Tony Cook]

Is this the right place to ask about rowing technique?

Ask away.
In anticipation though - have a look at the C2 site and, personal recommendation - Dark Horse Rowing and Training Tall for some good row-a-long videos.

[Willy.VdW]

Thanks a lot!
I have watched videos from the sites you mention.
My doubt is about the recovery.
After the drive, when the arms are stretched and the body leaned forward,
I see that the hands are brought quite low to the knees and when they reach
the knees, the knees start to bend. Hands and knees then move forward together.
I assume this lowering of the hands simulates the blades of the oars being lifted from the water?
On the other hand, it is advices to keep the chain horizontal. This seems contradictory with
what I see in the videos during the recovery. Perhaps keeping the chain horizontal and in line
with the arms is only during the drive?
Thanks,
Bert

[jamesg]

You can let the chain go where it's weight and the chain tension take it, there's no need to keep it high in the air. Just get your hands away first, then swing, then slide.

This recovery sequence (hands, swing, slide) ensures that we get our weight forward and on our feet during the recovery; allowing a quick catch and a strong pull, starting with the legs, on both erg and water.

Don't let your slide get too near the stretcher; this can only weaken the posture and slow the catch.

On water we use the weight of our arms to keep the blade(s) off it.

[Dangerscouse]

Personally I always keep the chain and handle on a straight line, but some people do prefer to dip it after it passes the knees.

I don't think that there's any notable training difference, but I just don't see the point, but that might be due to me never having rowed OTW, and always on the erg.

[Sakly]

Me either no OTW, but I drop the handle a bit as it feels more relaxed, natural, fluent. I raise the handle a bit at the catch to match chain height to get no slack.

[Willy.VdW]

Thanks again for the replies!
So, if I understand the replies correctly, it is allowed (but not necessary) to bring the handle/chain
somewhat lower in the direction of the knees during the recovery, but not too much.

I have another one

I wonder if it is the intension to keep the chain moving at the same speed during the drive.
If that is so, perhaps I can use the sound/noise of the flywheel as feedback.
I ask this because in some videos, I have the impression that the pull of the arms goes
faster than the pull of the legs.

[Tsnor]

Hands can be as low as you like during recovery.

But hands and chain should be in a straight line before you start the leg drive.

If your hands are low at the start of the leg drive then your arms and the chain make an angle, not a line.
You will *not* apply any real force to the flywheel with your leg drive until your hands/arms are directly in line with the chain. Try it. Your leg drive will just pick up the slack until hands are up.

Jamesg --> low hands at catch on erg is very similar to OTW "rowing it in" which gives up inches of leg drive vs "backing it in" where the blade is ready to take power at the catch.

If you look at videos, many of the OTW rowers go hands low, but they bring them up in line with chain before the catch. https://youtu.be/zQ82RYIFLN8?t=12

Others, like Eric Murray (outstanding OTW rower) just keep their hands straight. https://youtu.be/KDU4_v1DLms?t=1497

[Tsnor]

...
I wonder if it is the intension to keep the chain moving at the same speed during the drive.
If that is so, perhaps I can use the sound/noise of the flywheel as feedback.
I ask this because in some videos, I have the impression that the pull of the arms goes
faster than the pull of the legs.

The concept2 PM5 has a force curve. It shows the force you are applying. The force changes constantly as your legs/hips-back/arms get their (overlapping) turns during the drive. Even for just legs the force changes as your knee angle changes giving your legs more ability to drive hard. Typical shape for force curve is a "haystack", but there are many variations. Look for topics on force curve. Probably best to open a new thread with any follow-ups you have on force curve.

When you apply force the handle goes faster*, so the chain go faster and the flywheel spins faster. You can hear the RPMs rise in the "whooshing" sound the flywheel makes. As you noted, this generally means that the pull of the arms is a faster motion than the leg drive, and the chain will be going faster. If you were in a boat the water speed of the boat is highest at the arm part of the drive, then falls until the start of the leg drive on the next stroke. It looks smooth, but it's not.

The force curve would be an easier way to monitor your stroke speed than the sound of the flywheel, but if you have great ears maybe listening to the "whoosh" could work (i couldn't hear the difference between a good and bad stroke, only between a soft and a hard pull).



* yes you can apply force and have the flywheel still slow down if the flywheel air resistance is greater than the force you are adding. At this point the PM5 stops counting stroke length and considers it recovery. If you are doing this then consider pulling harder with your arms.

[JaapvanE]

I wonder if it is the intension to keep the chain moving at the same speed during the drive.
If that is so, perhaps I can use the sound/noise of the flywheel as feedback.
I ask this because in some videos, I have the impression that the pull of the arms goes
faster than the pull of the legs.

Legs are big and strong but slow muscles, the arms are much smaller but also faster. Thus the need to start the drive with the legs (and arms straight) to accelerate the flywheel (and thus the handle) in the end the arms take over and the acceleration drops (hence the haystack shape people refer to). I also measure the handle speed during drive, and typically the peak speed is when the arms are bending somewhere around 90 degrees, after that you start to loose against flywheel drag and you see the speed drop.

[JaapvanE]

The force curve would be an easier way to monitor your stroke speed than the sound of the flywheel, but if you have great ears maybe listening to the "whoosh" could work (i couldn't hear the difference between a good and bad stroke, only between a soft and a hard pull).

It is an easier way, but still tricky. ErgData can display average handle speed, but it won't tell you where you peak. With Open Rowing Monitor we measure handle force and handle speed, and there is a subtle difference here: handle speed is essentially the angular velocity times the sprocket radius. Handle force is torque divided by the sprocket radius, where torque includes a drag force (the square of the angular velocity times dragfactor) and the net acceleration force (angular acceleration times inertia) as components. So they behave differently. You typically see the handle velocity dip before handle force reaches zero, as the drag force becomes dominant.

[nick rockliff]

The force curve would be an easier way to monitor your stroke speed than the sound of the flywheel, but if you have great ears maybe listening to the "whoosh" could work (i couldn't hear the difference between a good and bad stroke, only between a soft and a hard pull).

It is an easier way, but still tricky. ErgData can display average handle speed, but it won't tell you where you peak. With Open Rowing Monitor we measure handle force and handle speed, and there is a subtle difference here: handle speed is essentially the angular velocity times the sprocket radius. Handle force is torque divided by the sprocket radius, where torque includes a drag force (the square of the angular velocity times dragfactor) and the net acceleration force (angular acceleration times inertia) as components. So they behave differently. You typically see the handle velocity dip before handle force reaches zero, as the drag force becomes dominant.

Why not just give the OP a simple answer to a beginners question?

[Willy.VdW]

I accept that not all (simple) questions have simple answers and if a simple answer is
given, that it is often incomplete. So I apprciate the elaborate replies, even if I have
to read them more than once or if they lead to new questions.
Must be the learning curve
Since my ears, after almost 70 years of service (and a lot of trombone/trumpet decibels
torturing them in the orchestra), are not in a particular good shape anymore, I think it
probably better to study the PM5 force curve. and I will do so
Thanks again for all the replies!

[jamesg]

I wonder if it is the intention to keep the chain moving at the same speed during the drive.
I have the impression that the pull of the arms goes faster than the pull of the legs.

The flywheel accelerates during the pull. It's heavy, so for safety we use our largest muscle first, which is in our legs and hips; followed by the arms. Low drag will keep the flywheel speed high, so that we can imitate the rowing action. The legs do most of the work; but we may need to learn how.

On PM force curve you'll see a "left leaning parabola", if you have a leg drive. The height of the curve is proportional to the pull force and to the flywheel acceleration.

Suggest you try the backstop drill to learn about the stroke and how it's pulled.

[Willy.VdW]

Suggest you try the backstop drill to learn about the stroke and how it's pulled.

Is this the backstop (pause) drill? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QuCVl62gV0
I have been watching/reading about pause drills in general, starting with
arms-only, then adding parts of the stroke until it is complete.
I feel that doing these drills is usefull and that I have to try not to row to
fast, since then the execution of the stroke loses precision.
I assume (hope) this will get better over time