Concept2 Forum

Hey all,
I just have a few question about going sub 7 on the erg. I am 15M , 183 cm (6 ft) and weight roughly 70 kg. My last 2 k was in early February this year and I went 7:16 when I was 64 kg and probably an inch shorter. Over the winter I have mainly done ss erg and strength training in the gym. For my steady state ergs I am hold 2:13 ish for an hour and heart rate capped at 165. I just want to know your thoughts on whether I can go sub 7 on my 2k and what erg workouts to do to familiarize myself with 1:45.

Also feel free to give me any feed back on my current training plan:

Monday: Rest
Tuesday: Workout 1: Squat 5*5 , Bulgarian Lunge 4 * 8-10, Hip Thrust 3*10 -15, Kettlebell swing 4*10-12, Goblet Squat 3*12, Plank 3*2 min, Cable pull down 3*15
Wednesday: AM: On water row PM: SS Erg 60 minutes total (e.g. 1 * 60 or 2*30)
Thursday: Erg ( usually short distance intervals or time intervals)
Friday: Workout 2: Overhead Press 5*5, Incline DB Press 4*8-10, Chin up 4 * failure, Hammer curl 3 * 15-20, Tricep Overhead 3*15-20, Lat Raise 3*15-20
Saturday: AM: On Water row PM: Workout 3: Deadlift 5*5, Cable Row 4*8-10, Bent Over Row 4*8-10, RDL 3* 15-20, Pushup 3* failure, Plank 2* 2 minutes
Sunday: SS Erg 60 minutes total (1 *60 or 2*30)

Any other advice would also be extremly helpful

Thanks ,
Will

Hi Will,
You will go sub 7 mins, if you keep training. You are putting good work in. When you do so is the $64,000 question.
Looks like you are in a rowing club so does your coach have any advice? He/she may well have good knowledge and experience of working with rowers of your age.
If you changed your training to just working for a 2k on the erg you could probably achieve that within 3 months, but if you are training for OWR and a more general rowing experience it will take a little longer.
Good luck and keep up the good work.

will3 wrote: ↑

July 24th, 2022, 6:40 am

Hey all,
I just have a few question about going sub 7 on the erg. I am 15M , 183 cm (6 ft) and weight roughly 70 kg. My last 2 k was in early February this year and I went 7:16 when I was 64 kg and probably an inch shorter. Over the winter I have mainly done ss erg and strength training in the gym. For my steady state ergs I am hold 2:13 ish for an hour and heart rate capped at 165. I just want to know your thoughts on whether I can go sub 7 on my 2k and what erg workouts to do to familiarize myself with 1:45.

Also feel free to give me any feed back on my current training plan:

Monday: Rest
Tuesday: Workout 1: Squat 5*5 , Bulgarian Lunge 4 * 8-10, Hip Thrust 3*10 -15, Kettlebell swing 4*10-12, Goblet Squat 3*12, Plank 3*2 min, Cable pull down 3*15
Wednesday: AM: On water row PM: SS Erg 60 minutes total (e.g. 1 * 60 or 2*30)
Thursday: Erg ( usually short distance intervals or time intervals)
Friday: Workout 2: Overhead Press 5*5, Incline DB Press 4*8-10, Chin up 4 * failure, Hammer curl 3 * 15-20, Tricep Overhead 3*15-20, Lat Raise 3*15-20
Saturday: AM: On Water row PM: Workout 3: Deadlift 5*5, Cable Row 4*8-10, Bent Over Row 4*8-10, RDL 3* 15-20, Pushup 3* failure, Plank 2* 2 minutes
Sunday: SS Erg 60 minutes total (1 *60 or 2*30)

Any other advice would also be extremly helpful

Thanks ,
Will

Can you post the max heart rate you've seen on any of your workouts ?

A 2K is 80% aerobic and 20% strength/anaerobic. You can get under 7 with the strength training you're doing. If you want the 6:30s or better you're going to need to build your aerobic base with long/slow UT2 work. Elite rowers are very aerobic focused - it's more than 90% of their training time.

Here is your schedule broken into rest (1 day), hard(5 days) and UT2 (1 day) sessions.
M - rest; T - hard weights; W - hard rowing ; Th - hard erging; F - hard weights ; Sat - hard rowing; Sun - UT2

Consider
1. stacking your weight training on the afternoons where you row OTW in the morning. (Wed Sat)
2. converting your weight days Tues, Fri to long/slow UT2 days where you erg or cycle or running or swimming or...

That gives you 3 hard days, 3 long slow UT2 days and a rest day.
M - rest; T - UT2; W - hard rowing + weights ; Th - hard erging; F - UT2 ; Sat - hard rowing + weights; Sun - UT2

3 hard days and 3 UT2 days is sustainable and should lead to greater long term performance growth. If you can adjust your days then switch things so you always have a rest day or UT2 day before a hard workout.

At 15 years old you should be looking to balance your body development rather than optimize for rowing, so finding those activities that are not rowing is a good thing. Example substituting a soccer game for your thursday hard erg session. Or doing a long swim or long slow bike ride or hike instead of a long row.

Critical, as said above, work with your OTW coach. Let them help you. Once they understand you are bought into becoming a stronger rower they can help you in all sorts of ways. Here is the resume of one of the juniors here where I row -- his coaches helped him get into college. I rowed with him when he was 14. He was not pulling sub-7 2Ks. The right training plan from his coach, 3 years later he went 6:09. If your OTW rowing coach is not the right person for you speak to guidance in your school - they can help you find a coach. https://new.berecruited.com/athletes/4292211

For strength training, here is what USROWING teaches coaches for Juniors about strength training. The video is targeted at coaches, so you'll need to skip some boring parts (e.g. first 7 mins play at 2x) before you get to know what your coaches are told. Sometimes it helps to know what they are trying to get you to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6c1q20RekQ

I

just want to know your thoughts on whether I can go sub 7 on my 2k and what erg workouts to do to familiarize myself with 1:45.

You can try, but it would mean interrupting your current heavy plan, to do some tapering, short and fast.

This is typical of Interactive Plan work (level 3 of 5) in the 3 weeks before an intermediate 2k test:

20'UT1 2x8'AT 2x2'TR 2x7'AT 3x2'TR
2x12'UT1 2x10'AT 4x2'TR 2x7'AT 2x4'TR
3x12'UT1 3x7'AT 5x2'TR 2x9'AT 3x3'TR

You can also keep it much shorter and easier: Take 2 days rest then do a 500 test, then the day after pull the 2k according to the French protocol: row at paces 92-88-88-91% of test speed (ie divide the test time by these numbers). A 1:34 test 500 should give you some room. Warm-up and race plan are fundamental, and the fundamental part of the plan is go slow at 500 in. It works if we have a good stroke and enough endurance.

Second guide-line system is realize that 7' 2k is just over 300W and that there's only time to pull about 220 Strokes, so they better be big. "Size" is Watts/Rating, and ratio around ten will come in handy.

You can also just wait, an inch or two is still to come, with a few kg. One of my blades says I was 68kg at age 16, another 79 at 19.

Tony Cook wrote: ↑

July 24th, 2022, 9:01 am

Hi Will,
You will go sub 7 mins, if you keep training. You are putting good work in. When you do so is the $64,000 question.
Looks like you are in a rowing club so does your coach have any advice? He/she may well have good knowledge and experience of working with rowers of your age.
If you changed your training to just working for a 2k on the erg you could probably achieve that within 3 months, but if you are training for OWR and a more general rowing experience it will take a little longer.
Good luck and keep up the good work.

Thanks for the reply and encouragement. Yep, I'm in a rowing club and will definetly talk to my coach in depth about my plans for this season during goal setting ect. Also I am mainly training for OWR as my priority is to do well racing but a good erg score wouldn't hurt.

Thanks, Will

Tsnor wrote: ↑

July 24th, 2022, 9:57 am

Can you post the max heart rate you've seen on any of your workouts ?

Yep. I don't usually wear heart rate monitor for short hard intervals as I find it quite distracting but when I was doing 4 * 2km intervals my heart rate was at 201. However, it can most likely go higher when doing shorter harder intervals.
A 2K is 80% aerobic and 20% strength/anaerobic. You can get under 7 with the strength training you're doing. If you want the 6:30s or better you're going to need to build your aerobic base with long/slow UT2 work. Elite rowers are very aerobic focused - it's more than 90% of their training time.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

July 24th, 2022, 9:57 am

Consider
1. stacking your weight training on the afternoons where you row OTW in the morning. (Wed Sat)
2. converting your weight days Tues, Fri to long/slow UT2 days where you erg or cycle or running or swimming or...

That gives you 3 hard days, 3 long slow UT2 days and a rest day.
M - rest; T - UT2; W - hard rowing + weights ; Th - hard erging; F - UT2 ; Sat - hard rowing + weights; Sun - UT2

3 hard days and 3 UT2 days is sustainable and should lead to greater long term performance growth. If you can adjust your days then switch things so you always have a rest day or UT2 day before a hard workout.

That makes alot of sense. I will try stacking weights ontop of on water rowing on Wednesday and Saturday. However, my tuesday gym session is a club training session so will most likely have to keep it there.
Would:
M- Rest ; T- Workout 1 ; W- Hard rowing + Workout 2; Th - hard erging; F- UT2; Sat - Hard Rowing + Workout 3 ; Sunday - UT2
still work and be ok?
Also on water session especially during winter season are more on technique and SS rather than power or intervals.

Thanks for all the help and support,
Will

jamesg wrote: ↑

July 25th, 2022, 1:41 am

You can try, but it would mean interrupting your current heavy plan, to do some tapering, short and fast.

This is typical of Interactive Plan work (level 3 of 5) in the 3 weeks before an intermediate 2k test:

20'UT1 2x8'AT 2x2'TR 2x7'AT 3x2'TR
2x12'UT1 2x10'AT 4x2'TR 2x7'AT 2x4'TR
3x12'UT1 3x7'AT 5x2'TR 2x9'AT 3x3'TR

You can also keep it much shorter and easier: Take 2 days rest then do a 500 test, then the day after pull the 2k according to the French protocol: row at paces 92-88-88-91% of test speed (ie divide the test time by these numbers). A 1:34 test 500 should give you some room. Warm-up and race plan are fundamental, and the fundamental part of the plan is go slow at 500 in. It works if we have a good stroke and enough endurance.

Second guide-line system is realize that 7' 2k is just over 300W and that there's only time to pull about 220 Strokes, so they better be big. "Size" is Watts/Rating, and ratio around ten will come in handy.

You can also just wait, an inch or two is still to come, with a few kg. One of my blades says I was 68kg at age 16, another 79 at 19.

Hi, thanks for all of the info. I would like to try doing a 2k but don't really want to interrupt my current training. I just came back from being sick followed by a 5 day training camp OTW which resulted in a muddled up training schedule. I'm just trying to get back on track but might have to end up doing a quick test just to see where I am at currently.

Thanks,
Will

will3 wrote: ↑

July 25th, 2022, 5:36 am

I will try stacking weights on top of on water rowing on Wednesday and Saturday. However, my tuesday gym session is a club training session so will most likely have to keep it there.
Would:
M- Rest ; T- Workout 1 ; W- Hard rowing + Workout 2; Th - hard erging; F- UT2; Sat - Hard Rowing + Workout 3 ; Sunday - UT2
still work and be ok?
Also on water session especially during winter season are more on technique and SS rather than power or intervals.

Understand completely. My OTW club drives a lot interval work, starts and sprints into its 4 day/week summer competitive team plan. I like rowing with them, so I do too many hard days in summer with only adding 1 or 2 UT2 level workouts a week. The rest of the year I can focus on UT2 work with 1 or 2 days/week of harder work. Glad your coach is using OTW time for technique (critical) and SS.

Whatever plan you use will be substantially better than being a couch potato. The better plans just make you stronger vs. the same effort spent on a worse plan. Following any of the plans you've outlined (including the first one) will put you in the top 10% of your age level.

Given you have a team workout Tuesday I'd drop the gym work wed afternoon. Weight/strength training two days in a row is not good if it hits the same muscles. You will be hitting the same muscles Tuesday, then Wed morning rowing. Skip hitting them again on Wed afternoon. 3 hard days in a row (tues, wed, thurs) is a lot. Is the Thursday workout a team workout? If not consider dropping it or use Thursday for another long/very slow day rather than hard erging.

Your body will be under light stress with this plan. You should be fine, but monitor it. This is one of the things coaches do - why they ask you lifestyle questions sometimes. If you find you are dreading doing a non-team workout then skip it or lighten it up or cross train. Thoughts of skipping or cutting short training sessions, general fatigue, keep getting minor illnesses, inability to relax, poor-quality sleep are your warning signs that you've done a bit too much and need to back off. If you have other things going on that stress you (school workload, etc.) also back off your workouts - the workout stress and other stress just stack up. Keep things fun. Coaches often drop team training load end of the semester and finals week, you can do that too.

will3 wrote: ↑

July 25th, 2022, 5:36 am

... when I was doing 4 * 2km intervals my heart rate was at 201. However, it can most likely go higher when doing shorter harder intervals.

4 x 2k is a great session to find max HR. Maybe showing up in the 2nd or 3rd interval.

A 200 HRmax gives you a target/guess heartrate of 0.7 x 200 = 140 for UT2 long sessions.
A 210 HRmax gives you a target/guess heartrate of 0.7 x 210 = 147 for UT2 long sessions.

There is no problem with doing UT2 slower than the max UT2 heartrate.
There is a problem if you do UT2 above your actual lactate threshold heartrate.

Currently you are doing steady state at "2:13 ish for an hour and heart rate capped at 165". Drop this to 2:25 and look for a heart rate cap around 140. Then adjust your split to keep your HR 135-140. Your split should be constant for the hour and your HR should also be constant. If your HR needs to go up to hold the split then your split was too fast. If you need to drop the split to keep your HR at the cap then next time start at the lower split. That heart rate drift (cardiac drift) is a sign you are getting out of the UT2 zone (or that you are overheating or that you are dehydrated).

UT2 (long/slow workouts) done correctly will feel odd, way too easy. You should be able to do this workout while chatting or watching TV. Getting this workout at a low enough effort level (according to research) will get you a stronger aerobic base faster than doing more. Maybe watch this video. https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_seile ... e_athletes If you feel you want more from your UT2 workout then lengthen it, do not increase the effort level.

edit: Maybe this will help. Member British national team. Access to full lactate testing. Max heartrate of 200. His coaches set his long slow workouts to 65% of 200 = 130 to 135. That was the right pace for him for UT2. He had been doing UT2 at a higher heart rate and it was not working well for him. https://youtu.be/XWKMG__UVQo?t=85 (link should start video at 1:25 in, the take away here is what the coaches told him and the pace/hr he was working. Some of his other videos have content not backed by science, so take them for what they are). His 2K is 5:49.

I would like to try doing a 2k but don't really want to interrupt my current training. I just came back from being sick followed by a 5 day training camp OTW which resulted in a muddled up training schedule. I'm just trying to get back on track but might have to end up doing a quick test just to see where I am at currently.

Basically, forget it. 2k is the sole Olympic distance, with good reason, and not done off-hand. In training, almost never.

Your erg numbers can tell you what you are doing, if you use Watts and Rating and their ratio, which is the work in each stroke. A good (7') 2k needs a ratio of around 10, in training. It takes technique, size and strength and maybe years too.

For a quick test, the 500 is good enough and not too devastating. A 2k can be 11% slower (70%Watts) if we have the endurance.

jamesg wrote: ↑

July 26th, 2022, 2:55 am

I would like to try doing a 2k but don't really want to interrupt my current training. I just came back from being sick followed by a 5 day training camp OTW which resulted in a muddled up training schedule. I'm just trying to get back on track but might have to end up doing a quick test just to see where I am at currently.

Basically, forget it. 2k is the sole Olympic distance, with good reason, and not done off-hand. In training, almost never.

Sorry James, but I disagree with this. Doing a 2k, whatever the result is always useful. It doesn't have to be a specific time, and getting used to doing a 2k with no specific pressure is a good training idea. Building the erg fear for a 2k is a very omnipresent issue that needs some form of reality to dispel it. One of my best training decisions was to do a 3 x 2k rate capped session (r22/r24/r26) as I saw what I was capable of without erg fear and expectation.

If it doesn't go to plan, you then find out where you currently are, and what you need to do, but there's a massive confidence boost if you go faster than expected. As long as the result is framed correctly, in terms of current form and fitness, I honestly think it can't fail to be a good option.

will3 wrote: ↑

July 25th, 2022, 5:39 am

I'm just trying to get back on track but might have to end up doing a quick test just to see where I am at currently.

Don't underestimate the importance of doing shorter, but similar distances eg 1250m 1500m, 1609m (one mile). If you've got the time, these can be done with some rest and then additional distance too.

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

July 26th, 2022, 5:22 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

July 26th, 2022, 2:55 am

I would like to try doing a 2k but don't really want to interrupt my current training. I just came back from being sick followed by a 5 day training camp OTW which resulted in a muddled up training schedule. I'm just trying to get back on track but might have to end up doing a quick test just to see where I am at currently.

Basically, forget it. 2k is the sole Olympic distance, with good reason, and not done off-hand. In training, almost never.

Sorry James, but I disagree with this. Doing a 2k, whatever the result is always useful. It doesn't have to be a specific time, and getting used to doing a 2k with no specific pressure is a good training idea. Building the erg fear for a 2k is a very omnipresent issue that needs some form of reality to dispel it. One of my best training decisions was to do a 3 x 2k rate capped session (r22/r24/r26) as I saw what I was capable of without erg fear and expectation.

If it doesn't go to plan, you then find out where you currently are, and what you need to do, but there's a massive confidence boost if you go faster than expected. As long as the result is framed correctly, in terms of current form and fitness, I honestly think it can't fail to be a good option.

4x2k or 3x2k is very useful for dispelling erg fear, but a flat out 2k can be really devastating physically. I think it took me over a week to recover from the 2k I did on the skierg in the TdS. Frequent flat out 2ks wouldn't feature in many plans.

Personally, I think 4x1k is even harder. It's physically as demanding, but destroys you mentally too, as it's "just" a training piece and you don't have the extra incentive of ranking it afterwards.

max_ratcliffe wrote: ↑

July 26th, 2022, 9:03 am

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

July 26th, 2022, 5:22 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

July 26th, 2022, 2:55 am

Basically, forget it. 2k is the sole Olympic distance, with good reason, and not done off-hand. In training, almost never.

Sorry James, but I disagree with this. Doing a 2k, whatever the result is always useful. It doesn't have to be a specific time, and getting used to doing a 2k with no specific pressure is a good training idea. Building the erg fear for a 2k is a very omnipresent issue that needs some form of reality to dispel it. One of my best training decisions was to do a 3 x 2k rate capped session (r22/r24/r26) as I saw what I was capable of without erg fear and expectation.

If it doesn't go to plan, you then find out where you currently are, and what you need to do, but there's a massive confidence boost if you go faster than expected. As long as the result is framed correctly, in terms of current form and fitness, I honestly think it can't fail to be a good option.

4x2k or 3x2k is very useful for dispelling erg fear, but a flat out 2k can be really devastating physically. I think it took me over a week to recover from the 2k I did on the skierg in the TdS. Frequent flat out 2ks wouldn't feature in many plans.

Personally, I think 4x1k is even harder. It's physically as demanding, but destroys you mentally too, as it's "just" a training piece and you don't have the extra incentive of ranking it afterwards.

Any test at 100% effort is tough but as James says, your numbers from training should be able to give an indication of where you are at any time.

When I first started I was always doing 2k tests.

I'd like to add that the detail matters in this instance.

I'm not saying it has to be 100%, as it just needs to be a good honest test, which could well be up to circa 95%. Info can be far better extrapolated from that than most other sessions, but, ime, it does need something really comparable to give you a proper idea of where you are. If we just use Paul's Law as an example there can a wide range of results as specific variables come into play that may or may not affect you, and therefore your interpretation of what is advisable.

This might just be me, but I've never properly struggled to recover from any TT. It's only post-Covid issues that are doing that now, so I'd assume that at 15yo, recovery won't be an issue.

When all is said and done, we're all very different and respond differently to different stresses & stimuli, so it's always good to try things just to see what happens. Having a restless curiosity for improvement can lead to some fantastic results, or just a thorough understanding of what to avoid. I certainly made A LOT of mistakes when doing my ultra distances.

The OP said

I just came back from being sick followed by a 5 day training camp OTW which resulted in a muddled up training schedule.

Doesn't sound to me like the right premise for doing a 2k test. But then neither does the training schedule he described.