Pete Plan - Hard Distance

[gobuk]

Hi,

I have been looking at the Pete Plan and I saw that he recommends "hard distance (~5k+)" once a week. What is the purpose of this type of training compared to UT1/2 steady state or intervals?

Thanks.

[Dangerscouse]

It's a different type of stress as you're not getting the rest period to recover from an interval session, so it will test your endurance and ability to cope when you want to quit.

Steady state is just building your base fitness through mitochondrial development, which is very important, but think if it like SS is widening the knife, and a hard 5k+ is sharpening the blade.

[Tsnor]

Hi,

I have been looking at the Pete Plan and I saw that he recommends "hard distance (~5k+)" once a week. What is the purpose of this type of training compared to UT1/2 steady state or intervals?

Thanks.

The ~5K distance (cycling tempo pace, lactate elevated but stable) gives you approx the same benefit as the hard intervals. It is very different than the Ut2 work. These ~5K workouts have stress like intervals, VO2max benefit like intervals, no rest/recovery benefit.

More recent studies have evolved the polarized "do either very easy or very hard" to "mix and match the hard and moderately hard all you want as long as you do no more than two to three of those workouts a week and do the rest at UT2 or lower"

This: How "normal people" can train like the worlds best endurance athletes https://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_seile ... e_athletes

Has evolved to this: Sustainable Training for Masters Athletes with Dr Stephen Seiler (starting at 51:15) https://youtu.be/kC5_0qOJhDk?t=3075

(note: many of the workout plans pre-date the research, however the research was based on studying what successful athletes did so the successful plans generally are supported by current research. Getting a match between modern UT2 lactate zone understanding (2006-2010?) and the Pete Plan (2008?) requires a surprisingly small amount of squinting).

[jamesg]

Endurance. When rowing it's the stroke that trains us, so if you row a 5k with a full stroke at rate 23 (ie UT1) it will be hard enough.

[sailortodd]

Endurance. When rowing it's the stroke that trains us, so if you row a 5k with a full stroke at rate 23 (ie UT1) it will be hard enough.

Minor thread jack to ask about stroke rate for the different training bands. You reference rate 23 for UT1, matching what I've seen in one place for training bands having an associated recommended stroke rate. But my understanding of the training bands is that heart rate is the more significant/important element. If I am doing a pace that keeps me in the UT1 heart rate band for a UT1 work out, how important is matching the stroke rate? For example, I can do a 5K UT1 row at a pace that keeps my heart rate in the 70-80% MHR range, but at a rate of 26, which is outside the 20-24 SPM for UT1. If stroke rate is important to the UT2/1/AT/TR training bands, why is it important?

[jamesg]

Because it enforces quality. HR alone does not. It's possible to get HR high with a weak stroke and high rating; or with a strong stroke and low rating. Our choice. HR is easy to get up, just climb a hill or enough stairs, with no need for an ergometer.

But if in the UT1 rating range, on the erg, you do not reach a heart rate that borders your current threshold, it's clear that your stroke is weak for some reason. The machine itself does not provide the discipline of a hill or ten flights of stairs. From this point of view, HR can be a useful erg technique indicator.

The major advantage of a C2 erg is that it shows Watts, so we know immediately how much Work is going into each stroke: = W/Rating. This enables stroke analysis, since Work = Length x Force: useful since on erg there's not much else to do aside from pulling good strokes and plenty of them.

No doubt the latest ergdata can show both L and F so will not be a step back for training.

[Tsnor]

Also do some googling on optimal rowing strokes per minute. There is not a strong consensus.

Concept2 says "For rowing, a stroke rate between 24 and 30 strokes per minute is typical for most workouts. When racing, stroke rates are generally a bit higher but usually still below 36." https://www.concept2.com/service/monito ... below%2036. However some of their thoughts are surprising such as "..Long hard workouts at this stroke rate (18-22) are not recommended..." https://www.concept2.com/news/rowing-st ... -explained

James makes good points about keeping the stroke rate low to build per stroke strength. Weight training may do a better job of this.

The only experienced based advice I have is to switch your stroke rate around. Once you get used to a low stroke rate it's hard to get it back up to the higher rates needed by some shorter workouts, and James' point on doing low rates is true also -- if all your workouts are at high SPM you'll have trouble getting to low rates at high power per stroke.

Research findings from cycling show there is no additional workout value in doing low cadence pedaling vs the same workout at normal cadence. People thought low cadence with higher force per stroke would give a better workout. Experiments show that is not true for cycling. Not sure if you can extrapolate from the cycling results to say no workout value from low SPM rowing.

For your training plan, you're right that Heart Rate is key and SPM is secondary. That said, you can have both - they are are not mutually exclusive.

[Tony Cook]

…
However some of their thoughts are surprising such as "..Long hard workouts at this stroke rate (18-22) are not recommended..."
…

Interesting when a staple test is 30 mins at 20SPM. Perhaps they don’t consider 30mins as ‘long’?

[hjs]

Hi,

I have been looking at the Pete Plan and I saw that he recommends "hard distance (~5k+)" once a week. What is the purpose of this type of training compared to UT1/2 steady state or intervals?

Thanks.

The plan is a Sharpening plan, a weekly test gets you used to pushing yourself.
Ut work is about building base and intervals is training, certainly hard, but won’t give you ranking results. Concept2 has a list to rank pieces. From sprint to full marathon.

[sailortodd]

Because it enforces quality. HR alone does not.

This makes some decent sense. I ask partly because I've seen some difference in recommendation from different places WRT stroke rate and either explicit or implied training zones. For example, the Pete Plan calls for none of the workouts to be <22spm (Pete prescribes that "steady distance" workouts be done at 22-25spm, and the "hard distance" OP was asking about to be done at >=22). The steady distance is a textbook UT2 workout in everything but stroke rate. The only place I've actually seen the SR associated with training bands is the Free Spirits Rowing heart rate bands calculator, which looks like it was based on an old Concept2 training guide that I don't see on the current C2 website. But then again, that's also the closest thing to a primary source I've seen on the training bands, with everything else referencing it or simply not citing any primary source.

Thanks for the perspective on that.

Interesting when a staple test is 30 mins at 20SPM. Perhaps they don’t consider 30mins as ‘long’?

I've never seen anything from any official Concept2 source plug, push or prescribe a 30m at 20spm test. Having subscribed to their WoDs for years, I hardly, if ever, have seen a rate <22 recommended, even with their rate change workouts, and definitely not for any steady state constant SR, no matter the distance.

[btlifter]

Well, physiologically, bands, or training zones, are unrelated to s/r - full stop.

Having said that, there is no consensus about whether certain bands ought to be performed at particular s/r. Some people (e.g. me) will swear up and down that they needn't be in most cases. Others are adamant of the opposite.

Having said that, anybody who suggests that there IS any sort of consensus among experts is either lying or misinformed.

*note ^ the above is in reference to s/r on the erg, only. If you're inclined to row on the water then s/r becomes inarguably important*

[Dangerscouse]

Well, physiologically, bands, or training zones, are unrelated to s/r - full stop.

Having said that, there is no consensus about whether certain bands ought to be performed at particular s/r. Some people (e.g. me) will swear up and down that they needn't be in most cases. Others are adamant of the opposite.

Having said that, anybody who suggests that there IS any sort of consensus among experts is either lying or misinformed.

Hahaha, I'm with you Cam. I don't use specific stroke rate ranges, and I usually choose it based on how I'm feeling eg energetic, lethargic or somewhere in between.

Having said that I do seem to have fallen into vague bands of pace with a given stroke rate, but it's by accident rather than design.

I've never seen anything from any official Concept2 source plug, push or prescribe a 30m at 20spm test. Having subscribed to their WoDs for years, I hardly, if ever, have seen a rate <22 recommended, even with their rate change workouts, and definitely not for any steady state constant SR, no matter the distance.

I've never looked at a C2 WOD, but I'm very surprised that a 30r20 hasn't ever been an option, and even more surprised that r20 generally has never been suggested. After a 2k, I'd probably say a 30r20 is the next most definitive workout for a rower, and r18-20 is far more common than r22+ for steady state in my experience of other rowers sessions.

[sailortodd]

I've never looked at a C2 WOD, but I'm very surprised that a 30r20 hasn't ever been an option, and even more surprised that r20 generally has never been suggested. After a 2k, I'd probably say a 30r20 is the next most definitive workout for a rower, and r18-20 is far more common than r22+ for steady state in my experience of other rowers sessions.

To return to the topic of the thread, the 30r20 seems like it'd be a good option for the PP hard distance day. If I'm doing a 30r20 for the first time, what should I use as a pace for a 30r20 if I've never done much work at r20 before? Based on the duration, I'm guessing it'd be best to keep my HR below AT for most of the workout? I couldn't even swag what I'd be able to maintain at r20 at this point.

[Dangerscouse]

To return to the topic of the thread, the 30r20 seems like it'd be a good option for the PP hard distance day. If I'm doing a 30r20 for the first time, what should I use as a pace for a 30r20 if I've never done much work at r20 before? Based on the duration, I'm guessing it'd be best to keep my HR below AT for most of the workout? I couldn't even swag what I'd be able to maintain at r20 at this point.

I'm a good example for you. I did my first one about four years ago, before then it was all r26+ as I was clueless and just rowed for enjoyment and fitness, without any progress.

My 30 mins PB was, I think, circa 8200m, but when I did a 30r20 (or a 30r19 as it turned out) I managed about 7700m and it totally wiped me out. The difference in effort of rowing at r20 and r28 was very significant.

I'd suggest that you need to go circa -9 seconds on your 30 mins hard pace, or maybe -18 on your 2k pace. Having said that, you'll know fairly quickly how it feels so you may need to adjust it, but I found the wobble always comes at about 18-22 mins in to it. Deep enough to suffer, but not close enough to home.

It's a shock to the system when you first do it, but I've managed to get up to circa 8200m now, so it does get easier with practice

[sailortodd]

I'm a good example for you. I did my first one about four years ago, before then it was all r26+ as I was clueless and just rowed for enjoyment and fitness, without any progress.

My 30 mins PB was, I think, circa 8200m, but when I did a 30r20 (or a 30r19 as it turned out) I managed about 7700m and it totally wiped me out. The difference in effort of rowing at r20 and r28 was very significant.

I'd suggest that you need to go circa -9 seconds on your 30 mins hard pace, or maybe -18 on your 2k pace. Having said that, you'll know fairly quickly how it feels so you may need to adjust it, but I found the wobble always comes at about 18-22 mins in to it. Deep enough to suffer, but not close enough to home.

It's a shock to the system when you first do it, but I've managed to get up to circa 8200m now, so it does get easier with practice

This is a great share that points me in the right direction. I'd classify myself as a novice recreational rower with no aspirations of competition, so these kinds of training have been stuff I've ignored in the past. But I'm putting in more meters on the erg this season than I have in any previous season, so I figure rather than just waste time going back and forth on the slide, I should adopt some workouts that will vary the impact. Something like the 30r20 will focus more on strength, so it will probably replace every second mid-distance row I have in my training plan. To start I think I'll attack the 20r20 for a few weeks to build up the base to add some time/distance to it.

Thanks.