Concept2 Forum

Hi all,
I recently got a heart rate monitor (Polar H10) as I'm getting into erging. I am 15, 66 kg and 183 cm tall with a 7:16 2k. According to the wolverine plan my UT2 or steady state should be 2:06 or around that. With this in mind, I have done a few workouts. Most recently I did 2 * 30' SS and found that my heart rate was really high. For the first piece I was pulling 2:11 avg split and found my heart rate at 170-173. For the second piece I lowered the effort and started pulling 2:15 - 2:16 in order to keep my heart rate at 165. In workouts before I pulled the same splits but my heart rate was even higher in the upper 170s.

Before the hrm I usually did SS at sub 2:10 around 2:07 or 2:08. However, that would get my heart rate up alot and past the 140-165 recommended for UT2 or SS. I am just wondering what this means and most importantly whether I should just do these ergs at 2:08 or follow the heart rate and do my workout at 165 or less bpm. I feel like at these slower splits I am not even working hard and that I will not get results.

Thanks,
Will

I presume you did not have your HR monitor on for your 2K time of 7:16 ?

You max HR must be pretty high as a 7:24 for me the other day the HR was 169 max and my HR maxes out at 150 for a 30min at 2:06 pace.

Your training bands are relative to your resting and Max HR.

At the end of the day your HR is what it is at a given pace and time and further training helps to lower it. Really would not be worried about "High" just pick a pace that's sustainable from one week to the next for the whole year. I find it takes about 2 weeks for the full effect of what it is your doing to fully kick in and you just need to tweak the training to match the goals. If you want more distance each week you have to choice but to reduce the pace.

Your body will give you the feedback if you try and overdo it. Just start at a lower pace and start clocking the meters each week.

What is your target distance each week ? Don't try and race your training.

will3 wrote: ↑

April 17th, 2022, 6:20 am

Before the hrm I usually did SS at sub 2:10 around 2:07 or 2:08. However, that would get my heart rate up alot and past the 140-165 recommended for UT2 or SS. I am just wondering what this means and most importantly whether I should just do these ergs at 2:08 or follow the heart rate and do my workout at 165 or less bpm. I feel like at these slower splits I am not even working hard and that I will not get results.

It's a bitter to swallow, but you're probably best advised to slow down to whatever pace gives you the HR% you're after. I know that it feels like you're hardly working, but when you're used to going too hard, even if only slightly, every session, it takes a bit of time to adjust but it does happen.

More importantly, as your fitness improves your prescribed pace will increase too, so it's got to be viewed as delayed gratification. Your ego will tell you it's too slow, but you'll reap the rewards with faster progress towards your goals.

will3 wrote: ↑

April 17th, 2022, 6:20 am

... but my heart rate was even higher in the upper 170s....

However, that would get my heart rate up alot and past the 140-165 recommended for UT2 or SS.

Max Heart Rates have a huge range. Two people the same age can have 50 beats/sec difference in max heart rate. UT2 and other training zones *cannot* be given as absolute heart rates like " 140-165 ", instead they are given as percentages of max heart rate.

Right now you know your max hear rate is at least "upper 170s". If your max HR was 180 then your UT2 heart rate should be approx 125-130. Not 140-165. Cross check this by singing "row row row your boat" while doing steady state. If you can't because not enough air then you are rowing too hard for UT2.

If you are exercising at most two to three times a week (which is excellent vs general population) then run your SS at any heart rate you like, ignore UT2 -- your body will grow stronger from any level of work you give it with a rest day after and 2-3 times/week. If you are working out three or more times a week then you need to limit your SS to the UT2 range or you get negative benefits from the additional work.

"I feel like at these slower splits I am not even working hard and that I will not get results." You will feel strange at UT2, it's more like walking than running, and it needs to be long. Hitting the rower or other exercise hard 2 times a week and UT2 another 2 to 3 (or more) times a week is the optimal pattern to get stronger and healthier.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

April 17th, 2022, 6:42 am

I presume you did not have your HR monitor on for your 2K time of 7:16 ?

You max HR must be pretty high as a 7:24 for me the other day the HR was 169 max and my HR maxes out at 150 for a 30min at 2:06 pace.

Your training bands are relative to your resting and Max HR.

At the end of the day your HR is what it is at a given pace and time and further training helps to lower it. Really would not be worried about "High" just pick a pace that's sustainable from one week to the next for the whole year. I find it takes about 2 weeks for the full effect of what it is your doing to fully kick in and you just need to tweak the training to match the goals. If you want more distance each week you have to choice but to reduce the pace.

Your body will give you the feedback if you try and overdo it. Just start at a lower pace and start clocking the meters each week.

What is your target distance each week ? Don't try and race your training.

I didn't have a HR monitor for my 2k and I don't know my max heart rate. According to the 220 - Age my max heart rate is 205 but I hear that this method is not very accurate. Would it be helpful for me to figure out my max and resting heart rate and if what should I do to find my max heart rate.

Currently I am doing 4 gym sessions (2 upper and 2 lower) and 2 erg sessions. My average distance is probably 25-30 km a week.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

April 17th, 2022, 10:13 am

Max Heart Rates have a huge range. Two people the same age can have 50 beats/sec difference in max heart rate. UT2 and other training zones *cannot* be given as absolute heart rates like " 140-165 ", instead they are given as percentages of max heart rate.

Right now you know your max hear rate is at least "upper 170s". If your max HR was 180 then your UT2 heart rate should be approx 125-130. Not 140-165. Cross check this by singing "row row row your boat" while doing steady state. If you can't because not enough air then you are rowing too hard for UT2.

If you are exercising at most two to three times a week (which is excellent vs general population) then run your SS at any heart rate you like, ignore UT2 -- your body will grow stronger from any level of work you give it with a rest day after and 2-3 times/week. If you are working out three or more times a week then you need to limit your SS to the UT2 range or you get negative benefits from the additional work.

"I feel like at these slower splits I am not even working hard and that I will not get results." You will feel strange at UT2, it's more like walking than running, and it needs to be long. Hitting the rower or other exercise hard 2 times a week and UT2 another 2 to 3 (or more) times a week is the optimal pattern to get stronger and healthier.

Thanks for the reply,
I know that my max heart is much higher than 180 as I have reached 180 towards the end of a easy 10 km piece. Currently I doing weights on top of steady state so these erg session are mostly recovery / easy UT2. You said that it is optimal to do UT2 2 -3 times a week and 2 harder ergs a week. Does this mean I should reduce my weight sessions?

will3 wrote: ↑

April 17th, 2022, 6:20 am

Hi all,
According to the wolverine plan my UT2 or steady state should be 2:06 or around that.

The Wolverine Plan does not use heart rate as a guide and makes no mention of UT2. So you must have gotten some crossed wires there.

The Freespirit website has a calculator for working out zones. Just google 'UT2 zone calculator' and it will come out as top result. To use this you need an accurate max HR and resting HR. So you need to complete a max HR ramp test or some other method of getting a physical reading of your max HR.

Final kicker. These charts/calculators don't quite align for everyone, so you'll need to use them as a guide and go by feel/RPE to get yourself to the right point.

Some major caveats to the HR based training approach

1. % of max HR as a guide is a lot less useful than % of lactate threshold. A lot of calculators will assume that lactate threshold occurs at 80-85% of MHR - in fact there is considerable variation. See https://www.verywellfit.com/lactate-thr ... ng-3120092 for more info and methods of calculating - best approach is a ramp test in a lab.
2. HR is influenced by external factors and thus has limited transferability across sessions. Power (w) or split are relative constants, and tend to be better guides as a result. So if you can work out your training zones based on power (understanding what your power at lactate threshold is) and row to those you'll be in a position to mitigate the external influences on HR.
3. The one further caveat to #2 is fatigue. If you're consistently finding it difficult to raise your heart rate, or maintain higher rates, you're probably fatigued and should back off to active recovery only.

I know a top time trial rider (time trialling is riding a bike over a course as fast as possible) who can sustain 98% of MHR for c.20'. This reflects that his lactate threshold has increased considerably as a result of training. For an athlete like this, zones based on MHR only are meaningless, as his threshold is probably c.90-95% of max. Some thoughts, rather than answers to your question, but the TLDR is that HR is not everything.

will3 wrote: ↑

April 17th, 2022, 8:19 pm

... Currently I doing weights on top of steady state so these erg session are mostly recovery / easy UT2. You said that it is optimal to do UT2 2 -3 times a week and 2 harder ergs a week. Does this mean I should reduce my weight sessions?

"Does this mean I should reduce my weight sessions?" No, I simplified too much, sorry. This is my take on what the research says.

1. Do 2-3 hard days a week, with at least one non-hard day between hard days. Going to 4 hard days a week had negative results in at least one study. 3 days vs 2 days had a slight positive difference, but very close to no benefit.

2. Do as many UT2 workouts as possible. Top college rowing teams are limited to 20 hours/week by NCAA rules, and they use all that time, mainly by doing two workout sessions a day 5-6 days/week. Competitive results improve with hours of workout time, but decline with too many hard sessions. Teams fill out their 20 hours with many hours of long/slow UT2 work. My "UT2 2 -3 times a week" was based on assuming you did 4-5 training sessions a week. Seiler's polarized "80% of sessions long slow" was based on 10 training sessions a week. I recommend you do 2 days hard a week then as many UT2 sessions as you like. If you can only do 2 sessions a week, both should include hard pieces.

3. Weight training really helps rowing. Do not reduce weight training. But weight training is hard, so do your weight training on the same days as your hard session so you don't mess up recovery. Or you can substitute weight training days for hard erg days. But don't end up with 2 hard erg days and 2 hard weight days. The key to performance improvements seems to be having the recovery days where your body adapts to the prior day(s) training. Dylan Johnson the endurance cyclist does weight work off season (during base building) where he is mainly doing UT2 then drops weigh training to make room for longer/more intense hard cycling sessions. Dropping strength training works for him, but I think most rowers continue weight training during the competitive season.

4. Your goal matters. Above is for competitive rowing. If you were after general fitness than substituting x-training for some of the hard and some of the long slow sessions will probably be better but will give you your less rowing specificity, so less rowing gains. The same pattern of 2-3 hard days/week still applies, so the mix of sports training cannot lead to more than 2-3 hard days/week.

I am 15, 66 kg and 183 cm tall with a 7:16 2k.

You have a long career ahead. Don't burn out now. If you know how to handle an oar or two and have good rhythm and style you'll be welcome in any boat.

Your 7:16 is 270Watts. Keep your power below 60% and rating below 22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4

Thanks for all the replies,
From what I have read it seems that HR training is not sent and instead dependent on your own max and resting HR. I will try figure out my max heart rate next time I erg but what should I do on the erg for this. In the meantime I will just use 140 - 165 bpm as a guideline as I know my resting heart rate is around 60 and my max is quite high as I got up to 190 doing a short 3 minute sprint a few splits above my 2k split. I have gotten better at holding 165 bpm but when I was doing 3 *20' 90sec rest my split was 2:15, 2:18, 2:17 which makes me feel like I have dropped off alot despite feeling just as fit and stronger. I will also continue doing weights and maybe do 4 gym sessions and 2 UT2 ergs over winter.