Leg Drive

[jvander76]

Is it just me? Despite really working on maintaining proper form, I really don't feel much resistance when I drive my legs. It is supposed to be 60% of the work load right? I have the damper set at 7 (its at the gym). But I do not get any sense of resistance until I complete the leg drive and use my core and arms to complete the stroke. Is that normal? I'd feel better if I had the sensation of doing a chunk if the work on my leg drive.

And...whenever I concentrate on getting my split time lower (over 5000m I average 2:17), it always seems to be as a result of really pulling harder with my arms. Driving my legs harder makes no noticeable difference.

Maybe I'm just over thinking it...

[Dutch]

Try the force curve for leg training you and drive hard like with just your legs, focus in on them and if you are driving properly you will feel like your bum may slightly lift.

Also try learn to set the drag factor properly, not just use the damper. The machine could be well out through dust and wear and tear. Anywhere between 110 and 130 for most distances, depending on your ability.

Follow the link, it is for the force curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo

[jamesg]

I really don't feel much resistance when I drive my legs.

It's us that have to provide the force to accelerate the flywheel, the machine can only react to what we do (Newton).

So the stroke must start fast with the legs, from a strong posture:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

In ergdata you can see peak and average force, stroke length and speed, which could help. Half your weight, 70% of height and speed 2m/s should be seen. As for technique, make sure your slide is not too far forward, keeping the knee angle open. The recovery sequence (arms, swing, slide) is critical.

Results depend of course on age, size and sex; 2W/kg will keep you fit.

[jvander76]

Thanks Dutch. That is a very helpful video. As a relative newb, I didn’t even know about the force curve. It looks like the answer is in a faster drive? Irrespective of how it may feel? My normal stroke rate is 23. It seems to me that by following the suggestions on this video, my stroke rate would necessarily be much higher. Unless I slow down my recovery. Obviously, I have some work to do to get where I want to be.

[Dutch]

Yes, a quick drive is the norm. Stroke rates can go up, but the idea is to do what is known as a low stroke training rate which is generally accepted as anything between 18 to 23 spm, 20 spm is generally the gold standard.
By training at the low stroke you would do a quick drive with full power and then take your time back through the recovery to the catch. So it would be something like a 1 second drive and 3 second recovery.
Just don't hang about laying back at the finish of a stroke and then dash forward to make the next stroke, finish the stroke and move slowly forward to make the next stroke, gathering your self for the drive.
Everything should work together breathing, drive, recovery, drive.

[Tsnor]

A gym erg is likely dirty. (not the parts you touch, but inside the flywheel screen where air flow build resistance. it needs to be cleaned each year, and gyms mostly do not do that).

A dirty erg has lower resistance than normal. The erg measures this and reports it as DRAG FACTOR. Dutch's post above references it. It's described here: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... etting-101 You can see the drag factor on any erg you use by pressing a few buttons on the PM5 (see ref above for how). A very dirty erg will have a very low drag factor. I think you are seeing the impact of a very low drag factor.

A normal speed stroke meets very little resistance on a low drag factor erg, so you feel very little resistance in your legs. Arms can't pull as hard so you start to feel it when you get to using your arms. If you overlap your arms and legs (not a great stroke) you'll feel almost nothing in your legs and everything in your arms.

FIX if drag factor is low: Move the damper arm to a higher number until you get a drag factor of at least 100. Rowing on10 on a drity erg can be like rowing on 3 on a clean erg, so don't worry about how high you need to set the damper, instead worry about drag factor. I like anything in the 110-120 range. Some like higher or lower. If you can't get to at least drag factor 100 on your gym's erg then you'll have to explain to the gym that there's a problem. Reference them to this set of instructions https://www.concept2.com/service/indoor ... aintenance and this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-PVMQQ2LTM Cleaning is not hard, whoever does their equipment maintenance will have no problem doing this procedure.

Note, you should be checking/setting drag factor every time you row on a gym erg. Its takes only a few seconds and every erg will have a slightly or very different damper setting to get the feel you want. It's really easy to get the same feel by using the same drag factor.

[jvander76]

Great information Tnsor. Thank you. I will have my own C2 rower in a couple weeks. So, finally, no more gym workouts! It will be nice to start fresh with a clean, properly functioning machine complete with my own PM5 to record data.

[Tsnor]

I finally got my own last year. It's MUCH nicer. Enjoy.

[kini62]

Is it just me? Despite really working on maintaining proper form, I really don't feel much resistance when I drive my legs. It is supposed to be 60% of the work load right? I have the damper set at 7 (its at the gym). But I do not get any sense of resistance until I complete the leg drive and use my core and arms to complete the stroke. Is that normal? I'd feel better if I had the sensation of doing a chunk if the work on my leg drive.

And...whenever I concentrate on getting my split time lower (over 5000m I average 2:17), it always seems to be as a result of really pulling harder with my arms. Driving my legs harder makes no noticeable difference.

Maybe I'm just over thinking it...

You're most likely sliding your butt (shooting the slide) and then pulling with your arms and back. Basically your legs are doing nothing. You need to practice just the leg drive. There are videos to help with that.

[Dangerscouse]

You're most likely sliding your butt (shooting the slide) and then pulling with your arms and back. Basically your legs are doing nothing. You need to practice just the leg drive. There are videos to help with that.

That is a good point, and is well worth checking first if that's the issue.

[jvander76]

Okay. I hope you guys are right. I'll find the videos you reference, and perhaps spend one workout session ONLY doing leg drives. Thanks.

[LBB]

As someone who just got my Concept 2 last night I can attest to the OP's feelings. Most of my work last night and this morning felt like it was coming from the upper body and my legs weren't tired at all.

I think what's happening for me is that on my leg drive, I'm closing my hips slightly. For example, if I'm at 11 o'clock at the catch, I might close to 10 o'clock during the leg drive. Obviously this is wrong, and any closure of the hips during the leg drive would negate any amount of power the legs could apply and also increase the amount of work the hips would need to do in order to get from 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

Still working on lots of drills and super new to this, but I am starting to realize that even though "I know" rowing is mostly legs, my brain isn't yet convinced. I have a handle in my hands, and I believe my brain is still sending my body messages to "load" my hips more to create more power because having something in your hands means your upper body is where the work should come from.

Unlike cycling (which is my background), there isn't anything confusing to your brain about how to apply more power into the crank since your feet/legs are the only thing attached and there are no additional arm or hip movements to incorporate.

This is probably like golf. Most newbies grab a club and swing all arms. Swinging harder with the arms does nothing. It's only when you incorporate your lower body, hips, and shoulders in the proper sequence do you generate club head speed.

[mitchel674]

As someone who just got my Concept 2 last night I can attest to the OP's feelings. Most of my work last night and this morning felt like it was coming from the upper body and my legs weren't tired at all.

I think what's happening for me is that on my leg drive, I'm closing my hips slightly. For example, if I'm at 11 o'clock at the catch, I might close to 10 o'clock during the leg drive. Obviously this is wrong, and any closure of the hips during the leg drive would negate any amount of power the legs could apply and also increase the amount of work the hips would need to do in order to get from 10 o'clock to 1 o'clock.

Still working on lots of drills and super new to this, but I am starting to realize that even though "I know" rowing is mostly legs, my brain isn't yet convinced. I have a handle in my hands, and I believe my brain is still sending my body messages to "load" my hips more to create more power because having something in your hands means your upper body is where the work should come from.

Unlike cycling (which is my background), there isn't anything confusing to your brain about how to apply more power into the crank since your feet/legs are the only thing attached and there are no additional arm or hip movements to incorporate.

This is probably like golf. Most newbies grab a club and swing all arms. Swinging harder with the arms does nothing. It's only when you incorporate your lower body, hips, and shoulders in the proper sequence do you generate club head speed.

Feel the hang as you drive. The handle and the seat should move simultaneously as you start your drive. Your arms should be relaxed with the large latissimus muscles taking the weight almost like if you were hanging off a pull up bar. This type of visual really helped me when I was starting out.

[LBB]

Thanks mitchel

Yeah, some of the leg only drills I was doing (dark horse youtube follow along) mentioned the seat and handle should move the same amount during the drill. The thought of "hanging off a pull up bar" is something I'll try to use.

[Dangerscouse]

Still working on lots of drills and super new to this, but I am starting to realize that even though "I know" rowing is mostly legs, my brain isn't yet convinced. I have a handle in my hands, and I believe my brain is still sending my body messages to "load" my hips more to create more power because having something in your hands means your upper body is where the work should come from.

Unlike cycling (which is my background), there isn't anything confusing to your brain about how to apply more power into the crank since your feet/legs are the only thing attached and there are no additional arm or hip movements to incorporate.

Very true, and what is also helpful is imagine you're jumping horizontally and then the arms / back sequence will naturally follow as your legs go past halfway.

I did a drill of pushing with alternating legs to build a mind body connection eg push say 75/25 with left leg, then change to right leg and then push 50/50 and start again. Feeling a more powerful drive with one leg really changes the focus if you do this for a quite a while