Concept2 Forum

Starting to row again after years off.
Completely sedentary
I think my heart is the size of a walnut or there may be something wrong with me.


Decided to take a scientific approach and watched many hours for video on how elite endurance athletes train.

My goal is better endurance.

So the literature only talks about 3 zones of training based on lactate threshold... and that elite athletes spend 80-90% of their time putting massive time/volume into zone 1.

So I decided to massive zone 1 training to build a good base.

They also train at around 60% of their max heart rate. So I calculated that. Im in my 50's with a max of around 166.

So Im doing 30 min rows for the first few weeks and I hold at 100bpm for the entire row, which ends up about 4800 meters.

Here is the shocking part. At 60% max heart rate im only putting out 55% watts on average

This is shockingly low... should I go to a doctor, or is this normal for someone completely sedentary????
Im not obese, im quite lean actually.

Need advice. Has anyone else see numbers this bad when they first started?!?!?!?

FYI - world record cyclists can do 440 watts for 1 hour straight.
This is just so unbelievable. There are terminators, not humans.

Standard advice is always to consult a GP before beginning a new exercise regime, but I doubt many of us actually do

Is your max HR an actual max, or worked out from that accursed and inaccurate 220-age formula?

Assuming it's correct and further assuming your resting HR is about 66 for ease of calculation, you should be working at 60%*(166-66)+66=126bpm. 70% is 136 and so on. While this is still highly approximate, working your HR ranges this way will be a lot better than just going for a simple percentage of your maximum HR.

Unless you're quite short, 4800m in 30' doesn't sound like a lot, so I suspect you may have need some work on your technique.

James will no doubt comment, but you should probably be working on a stroke value (also known as SPI) of somewhere between 8 and 10 watt'/stroke. If the 55W was at 18spm, then this is only approximately 3W'/stroke. As your body gets used to rowing, then you should be looking to put more work into each stroke (not haring up and down the slide at a faster rate). You'll then find that you're markedly faster for a given effort and HR.

Good luck.

How do you feel at the end of the 30 minutes ?

100bpm is very low, I don't spend any time there at all, a 30min that ends up with an average HR in the 130's is a "Recovery pace" row. My HR will go into the 90's on just a fast walk on the flat road.

The good news is that you can expect dramatic improvements in the first 3 to 6 months with regular training, perhaps even a 30% improvement.

The secret is just regular exercise, the shock for me is how fast your fitness deteriorates after only a couple of weeks off the rower.

I would not worry, sounds like a start distance and in 6 months expect to see 6000-6500 meters.

As Max says, use HR range. Flat %s of max works out too low, as you've seen.

At low ratings, less than 23, you won't be in danger in any case. Indeed your HR may tell you you're not doing enough. If so, pull longer strokes a little harder, but NOT at higher rating: rowing as exercise means length, extension and sustainable force, with plenty of rest between strokes to allow comfortable rhythms. The longer the rest, the better the stroke can be, if you use your legs.

If not already familiar with this standard rowing style, see how it's done here:
https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

It's probably best to start with shortish intervals, working up to say 6*2 and/or 4*5 minutes, rest 2 minutes, with good strokes all at low ratings: consider it learning, exploration and discovery. Endurance comes slowly, but it comes surprising soon.

2 Watts/kg is a good level, if at low ratings. The Watt/Rating ratio also tells us what we are doing.

Hf 100 is extremely carefull

Use HRR, for your cap, and use 70%. Top athletes use lactate testing, and that will be lots higher than 60%. There aerobic cap can be 80/85% in very aerobic cases.

Re max, thats not to calculate. Max is simply max. For now just use that 160 ish cap, but later on, you will find out what it really is. If you push it hard.

If you are in your 50s and have been sedentary for years I would not worry. You have zero indication of what you of what your abilities are and what you are indeed capable of yet.
My stepson is 24, 5ft 6, leanish build and wanted to do a timed 2k, his 60 year old mother is stronger than him literally and he brought the 2k home in 12.02 mins. ave 3.02 per 500, 58.1 watts, his V02 max was minus 2.36.
He weighs 55kg and should be dead according to the concept2 calculator. A 69 year old who is below 15.9 vo2 is poor, so god knows what he is lol
He was puffing and achey but did it and then did another 2k, two weeks later, he pulled it down to 11.30 as he knew his own ability a bit more, and discovered he would not keel over with a bit of effort.
All the scientfic stuff is good and helps but give your self a chance to get some miles in. But keep a written record of your rows line by line in an a5 note book. As when you look down it you start to notice patterns about your own self and hopefully improvements.
To be honest how you feel at the end of the row is probably your best indicator.

Yes, the long slow rows are SHOCKINGLY low power. You should be able to chat during the row. Speak in sentences. They are weird when you first start doing them.

From your post you've read recent literature, and understand it. Its just really hard to actually go that slow.

If you plan to do 3 rows per week, then you can bump power all you want on 2 rows. Just try to keep one long duration low power row. Apparently it grows mitochondria that will not grow once you start using more power. At a minimum you need one high power session a week once you get back into minimum condition so you don't hurt yourself. High power gives you VO2max, etc. that you can't get via long slow.

If you plan to do 5 or 7 workouts per week then it is critical that you do not bump power up just because you can. Max 2 maybe 3 hard workouts a week. Else you will see resting heart rate fall, plateau and then start to rise as you overreach. If you have a way of tracking resting heart rate that if a very good safety indicator to see if long/slow is working or failing.

How did you get max heart rate? If from a formula then do not trust it. If from prior rowing then drop a few beats off for each year since you did your max and you will be very close.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

July 30th, 2021, 11:20 am

How do you feel at the end of the 30 minutes ?

Feels like I did nothing at all. Like I didnt exercise.
Its so easy its hard to imagine its enough stress to cause an adaptive response.

Ok even I am not THAT bad.

I could probably do a 2K in 8:40 right now, no problem. Im 160lb.

The thing thats really throwing me off, is the fact that the insane endurance athlete are putting so much volume in around 60% of the HR max, which just doesnt work for me.
Its TOO EASY.

I may have to try something like 60-70% of my average watts taken from my best 2K.
Then do a 2K test once a month and re-calibrate as I get better.

Dutch wrote: ↑

July 30th, 2021, 4:34 pm

If you are in your 50s and have been sedentary for years I would not worry. You have zero indication of what you of what your abilities are and what you are indeed capable of yet.
My stepson is 24, 5ft 6, leanish build and wanted to do a timed 2k, his 60 year old mother is stronger than him literally and he brought the 2k home in 12.02 mins. ave 3.02 per 500, 58.1 watts, his V02 max was minus 2.36.
He weighs 55kg and should be dead according to the concept2 calculator. A 69 year old who is below 15.9 vo2 is poor, so god knows what he is lol
He was puffing and achey but did it and then did another 2k, two weeks later, he pulled it down to 11.30 as he knew his own ability a bit more, and discovered he would not keel over with a bit of effort.
All the scientfic stuff is good and helps but give your self a chance to get some miles in. But keep a written record of your rows line by line in an a5 note book. As when you look down it you start to notice patterns about your own self and hopefully improvements.
To be honest how you feel at the end of the row is probably your best indicator.

So if I use a 2K that im pretty sure I could do right now.... an 8:30 - or something close to that.

And take the average watts, and use 60% of that as "endurance training" for long rows... that would put be at 101.4 watts as my target. That seems a lot more reasonable.

Hmmmmmmm.

I try 30 mins and see if I never have to open my mouth to breathe.

jost wrote: ↑

July 30th, 2021, 5:28 pm

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

July 30th, 2021, 11:20 am

How do you feel at the end of the 30 minutes ?

Feels like I did nothing at all. Like I didnt exercise.
Its so easy its hard to imagine its enough stress to cause an adaptive response.

You are doing 30 minute rows. Most literature says don't bother at less than 45 min, try hitting this pace for 90 minutes on the long slow. Do add the day or two of fast rows. Then see how your pace improves over a month at constant low HR, and see how your resting HR falls.

If you can't budget the time to do sufficient long slow then you need a different workout approach. What you described " So I decided to massive zone 1 training to build a good base." isn't going to happen at 30 minutes. Going hard for 30 minutes 3 days/week is better plan if you have only 2-3 hours/week. Use workouts from the beginner peter plan. https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/beginner-training/

This guy is a cyclist, but he has the long slow stuff down cold and he uses it to win bike races. SKIP the first minute and a half, its content free then look hard at his proposed workout schedules. The workout plans are for cycling, but work for rowing and they are roughly what top level rowers do. See where he makes his trade-offs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9SvLGv2c1E&t=517s

I use the classic 2k average and add 20 secs to that so 1.49 becomes 2.09 as a rough training guide.

I really think you are complicating things at this early stage.

These guys you are trying to train like are doing 20k a time minimum, twice a day sometimes, and over 100k a week at least.

jost wrote: ↑

July 30th, 2021, 5:48 pm

So if I use a 2K that im pretty sure I could do right now.... an 8:30 - or something close to that.

And take the average watts, and use 60% of that as "endurance training" for long rows... that would put be at 101.4 watts as my target. That seems a lot more reasonable.

Hmmmmmmm.

I try 30 mins and see if I never have to open my mouth to breathe.

BE wary. Your max heart rate is suspect. You are just starting. Long slow is really dumb slow. Its elite runner walking up a hill because its a long slow day. Try this 101.4 wattage for a long enough time then try to SING. If you can't you are going too hard for long slow to work. 100 watts is about a 2:30 pace. 2:30 is reasonable for long slow, but maybe not when you are just starting. If you can hit 2:00 spits for 15 mins during a hard workout then 2:30 long slow is reasonable/perfect. If you are more like 2:15 for 20 mins hard then 2:30 long slow is not going to work. You can push through it, but you will be into lactate buildup and you will *not* get the benefits described in the literature.

Dutch wrote: ↑

July 30th, 2021, 6:03 pm

I use the classic 2k average and add 20 secs to that so 1.49 becomes 2.09 as a rough training guide.

I really think you are complicating things at this early stage.

These guys you are trying to train like are doing 20k a time minimum, twice a day sometimes, and over 100k a week at least.

+1 At 2-3 hours a week just do simple workouts. If you want to use the polarized stuff you gotta do the time.