Concept2 Forum

I’ve been using the rower for 3 weeks now, doing the daily workout which is great motivation, and my stroke rate seems to average 28-30 for what I feel is a good effort without destroying myself.
What I’m having trouble with is being able to row at 20-22 spm. It feels like if I can manage to row at this rate, I barely need to pull hard enough to engage the fan. And what is the point of this minimal amount of effort?
Any input?
Thanks
Cheers
Barry

20spm is not low effort it is high effort.

What your not looking at is your pace. Try rowing at 20spm at the SAME pace as your rowing at 28-30spm and its no longer minimal effort. What your probably currently doing is putting in the same effort per stroke at 20spm as your doing at 30spm and its doesn't work that way because you pace has now dropped significantly.

Check your actual Drag Factor on the monitor, this is a really important number that relates to the mechanical damper position on the fan. What you will probably find is your making the classic beginner mistake of having the setting up to high. Over time you need to work towards a number on the monitor between 110 and 130.

The analogy that I came up with is that rowing is like tennis practice. Balls are fired at you regularly and your job is to wack them back as hard as possible.

After the catch in rowing, you try to give as big a wack as possible to the flywheel inside the erg. Coming back towards to the catch is time to rest and relax with no rush, just like in the tennis practice.

Rowing is not like running, cycling or swimming. It is not continuous. Rather, it is a series of separate, carefully controlled explosive movements.

I find this parallel helps me. All comments from more experienced folk welcome.

Any input?

The instructions for use are here:

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

You can increase the work in each stroke, so need to pull fewer per minute, by increasing the length and the force of each one. "Work" is an engineering term, defined as Length x Force.

BarryGXNZ wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2021, 1:47 pm

I’ve been using the rower for 3 weeks now, doing the daily workout which is great motivation, and my stroke rate seems to average 28-30 for what I feel is a good effort without destroying myself.
What I’m having trouble with is being able to row at 20-22 spm. It feels like if I can manage to row at this rate, I barely need to pull hard enough to engage the fan. And what is the point of this minimal amount of effort?
Any input?
Thanks
Cheers
Barry

Stroke is two parts, drive and recovery, those two are not connected. When you slow at lower ratings, you keep a firm/strong drive and slow down the recovery part. You are slowing down the whole motion.
There is indeed no point in little effort, so put in more. But keel the recovery relax.

hjs wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2021, 3:59 am

Stroke is two parts, drive and recovery, those two are not connected. When you slow at lower ratings, you keep a firm/strong drive and slow down the recovery part. You are slowing down the whole motion.
There is indeed no point in little effort, so put in more. But keel the recovery relax.

Yep. That sums it up perfectly

To add some motivation for why low stroke rate is of interest:

This text is from page 38 of the book " The complete guide to indoor rowing" by Jim Flood and Charles Simpson;

"Indoor rowers stil have to use much of their energy to move the body and this becomes more obvious as stroke rate increase. Approximately 35 per cent of the energy cost of rowing at 32 strokes per minute is due to body movement. In other worlds, a large amount of the energy produced by the body during rowing does not contribute to the power output recorded on the computer display. The energy cost of body movement increases in porpotion to stroke rate and the body weight of the rower"

As said above, make sure the drag factor lever is at about 4 or 5.

If you're currently doing 28-30 spm, next time maintain the pace but at 25-26 spm. When you've cracked that, move down again to 22-24. And eventually to 20 or so.

To make yourself slow down, when you get to the end of the drive try counting "and one, and two" before heading back along the rail again for the next stroke.

BarryGXNZ wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2021, 1:47 pm

I’ve been using the rower for 3 weeks now, doing the daily workout which is great motivation, and my stroke rate seems to average 28-30 for what I feel is a good effort without destroying myself.
What I’m having trouble with is being able to row at 20-22 spm. It feels like if I can manage to row at this rate, I barely need to pull hard enough to engage the fan. And what is the point of this minimal amount of effort?
Any input?

I have no advice for you since this is precisely the question I have been asking myself the last three months. The running non-analogy is correct in that you can't "run slower" but push off from the the ground much harder and thus cover 800m in the same time as when you were frantically dashing along like Sebastian Coe. Your pace and your rate in running are directly related. If you have a faster turn-over, you are likely running faster.

But in rowing (or so they tell me), slow rate rowers are going just as fast. I do believe the other (smarter) posters on this forum because I have watched the videos but I can't do it. You have to use power to pull harder. Well, the joke's on me because I am already pulling as hard as I can (and pushing as hard as I can with my legs).

OregonERG wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2021, 5:13 pm

But in rowing (or so they tell me), slow rate rowers are going just as fast. I do believe the other (smarter) posters on this forum because I have watched the videos but I can't do it. You have to use power to pull harder. Well, the joke's on me because I am already pulling as hard as I can (and pushing as hard as I can with my legs).

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. Take a look at the times in your signature. Not exactly chopped liver! Pretty respectable, but you naturally expect better.

I would guess it's a matter of finding connection (& therefore technique related) to the flywheel. I think you're maybe strong or aerobically fit enough, but your stroke is bleeding away power that should be put into the flywheel.

OregonERG wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2021, 5:13 pm

BarryGXNZ wrote: ↑

June 5th, 2021, 1:47 pm

I’ve been using the rower for 3 weeks now, doing the daily workout which is great motivation, and my stroke rate seems to average 28-30 for what I feel is a good effort without destroying myself.
What I’m having trouble with is being able to row at 20-22 spm. It feels like if I can manage to row at this rate, I barely need to pull hard enough to engage the fan. And what is the point of this minimal amount of effort?
Any input?

But in rowing (or so they tell me), slow rate rowers are going just as fast. I do believe the other (smarter) posters on this forum because I have watched the videos but I can't do it. You have to use power to pull harder. Well, the joke's on me because I am already pulling as hard as I can (and pushing as hard as I can with my legs).

Rowing low rates does build a stronger stroke. In training. You don't use this rate to set a personal best. You use low rate to take "pulling as hard as I can" and improve it over time.

Low rate rowers are *not* as fast as high rate rowers in a sprint. All sprinters use a high stroke rate because it's faster.

By trying to row the same splits at a lower rate in training you WILL deliver more leg drive. Your drive will get stronger even if you can't reach the same split. If you look at (wattage) divided by (strokes per minute) you can see the more powerful stroke.

But rowing low rates will NOT give you a personal best at any distance. Long distances the rate the works best for you is better than 5 SPM slower than that rate. Sprints -- no one can hit the same splits at low rates.

Most of it has been said above. What hasn't (although I suspect it is in James's video) is technique. Unless doing strength exercises (1-2 min a rep), low rate isn't maximal effort. I hit my highest HR at 20SPM so not strength limited. What is important is to feel the connection and accelerate faster. So the leg speed should mean you feel the force in your lats, while you can feel the footplate as you get your weight on the sole of your foot (ie heels down). The stroke should ideally be the same length as normal, but this is an opportunity to lengthen that if you have a reduced layback or aren't bringing your hands accelerating to0 close to the body. It should feel like "jumping backwards" or a squat. As for the latter part of the stroke, there should be clear acceleration throughout the whole stroke finishing with fast arms. Finally, you should aim to have no pause in your stroke, so a fast power stroke leads to your hands pushing away fast at first, but you pivot forward slowly and then really crawl up the slide. Try and get in 1.5 normal speed breaths on the recovery. Most importantly remember that the "boat" speed is primarily determined by how fast the flywheel is spinning at the end of the stroke as it only slows down a bit during the recovery so you keep getting payback from that pace and don't need to do any more work for a couple of seconds.

Practice makes perfect. I found after a good workout, practicing near maximal strokes for 30S to 1 min at slow rate with a min rest between seeing how low I could get the split helped me to iron out inefficiencies in the stroke. Probably better to work up to maximal increasing through the first couple of reps as you don't want to tear anything. If doing 60S, build through the first 3 strokes as well as it is harder to get a smooth drive on a slow or stationery flywheel.

Good training and let us know how you do.

HowardF wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2021, 11:02 am

To add some motivation for why low stroke rate is of interest:

This text is from page 38 of the book " The complete guide to indoor rowing" by Jim Flood and Charles Simpson;

"Indoor rowers still have to use much of their energy to move the body and this becomes more obvious as stroke rate increase. Approximately 35 per cent of the energy cost of rowing at 32 strokes per minute is due to body movement. In other worlds, a large amount of the energy produced by the body during rowing does not contribute to the power output recorded on the computer display. The energy cost of body movement increases in proportion to stroke rate and the body weight of the rower"

And whilst i have no doubt that the energy involved in moving ones body is significant at any distance, its easy to see why reducing excess weight over longer rows can pay dividends (assuming of course that the weight lost does not detract from power).

If your a heavy average Joe, it pays to get your rating down for a Full Marathon.

Although it was no world record mine was done at only 18spm from memory. I don't think I would have managed to finish if I had to fly up and down the slide at 32spm for just under 3 hours.

HowardF wrote: ↑

June 6th, 2021, 11:02 am

This text is from page 38 of the book " The complete guide to indoor rowing" by Jim Flood and Charles Simpson;

"Indoor rowers stil have to use much of their energy to move the body and this becomes more obvious as stroke rate increase. Approximately 35 per cent of the energy cost of rowing at 32 strokes per minute is due to body movement. In other worlds, a large amount of the energy produced by the body during rowing does not contribute to the power output recorded on the computer display. The energy cost of body movement increases in porpotion to stroke rate and the body weight of the rower"

I liked the book by Jim Flood and Charles Simpson, but I don't agree with the cited text. The biggest part of the energy used to move the body back and forth is not lost, but is used in the stroke and is included in the power output on the PM display.

There have been several scientific investigations about the mechanical energy efficiency of the body in cycling and rowing on an ergometer. They have settled on values of about 19% for rowing and 23% for cycling (see e.g. Steinacker (1986) and more recently Lindenthaler (2018) . If 35% of the mechanical energy in rowing would be unaccounted in the power data on the PM, the mechanical efficiency of rowing would amount to about 27%. Most textbooks on physiology in sports agree that the maximum mechanical efficiency in an aerobic exercise is lower than 25%.

So how is the kinetic energy of the body in a stroke used to move the flywheel? The simple answer is in a topic Rower issue sends me flying posted a few days ago. At the catch the rower pushed off but the clutch failed. There was no resistance of the handle and the rower was flying backwards to the end stop. Hopefully the foot straps caught him. This happens when the kinetic energy of the body cannot be used. Most of us get to a complete standstill at the end of the drive without pulling on the foot straps. Most of our upper body and the legs have already come to a standstill before the final pull with the arms. This is proof that the kinetic energy of the moving body is used to pull the handle in a smart way! So at least most of the moving body energy in the drive is used for pulling the flywheel.

What about the energy for moving the body in the recovery. This is more speculative. There is evidence that some part of kinetic energy of the body can be stored in the leg muscles, which act like a kind of springs. This energy is released after the catch. You can understand it better if you read my introduction to a topic 10% Higher Rowing Power and the discussions in that topic.