Concept2 Forum

Hi all,

Just had my shiny new RowErg delivered which I plan to use to complement my powerlifting. My aerobic fitness is pretty bad and I really want to improve. I’ve watched the technique videos and my PT had a look at my form today with the only comment not to let my upper body slump after a while but to sit up tall. Otherwise he thinks it looks pretty good.

I’m interested in getting some expert feedback on what to aim for. I’ll put what I think are relevant stats below. Basically I don’t have an ideal body shape for rowing as I’m short with short legs. I’m also overweight. What I do have working in my favour is really good leg strength and a great deal of sheer bloody mindedness. I did a test 2k (nearly killed me - I’m so unfit!) which was 12:08 @ 29SPM. I went out too hard as my first 500m was 2:47 and I pretty much crashed in the 3rd 500m. It was the bloody mindedness that meant I didn’t stop part way through. My heart rate hit 158 during that.

At this point I’m not sure whether the best thing is to ignore splits and just try and build up to a consistent 30 minutes a day. What would be the best route to improve my aerobic fitness?

I’m female, 46, 165cm tall, inside leg is 73cm. I weigh 11kg, resting heart rate is 70bpm. I’ve actually got quite high muscle mass for a female my age (about 58kg lean mass at my last dexascan), just way too much fat to keep it company
Strength wise I deadlift 90kg 3RM and can leg press 220kg for 3 x 10 reps so I don’t think leg strength is an issue. Transferring that via my short legs given how short my drive is may be more of a problem. I’m guessing with my height and leg length my split times are never going to be particularly good.

So I guess that’s a lot of info to ask what to focus on to improve my aerobic fitness. I’m guessing slowing down the SPM so it’s more sustainable so I can put the time in. I’m hoping the answer isn’t lots of intervals as that sounds like my idea of hell, but if that’s the most effective then so be it.

Any advice gratefully received!

Welcome to the forum.

Imo, what you need to do for a while is to row for as long as you can, at a lower stroke rate and a slower pace.

As your HR reached 158 you can use that as your max. What I found to be ideal for weight loss, and building base aerobic fitness, was to row at circa 70-75% of your MHR. It is almost guilt inducingly slow, but you can go up to 80% if it does feel far too slow. Enjoying the process is more important than the specific numbers.

Rowing at lower stroke rates will probably feel hard to start with, so it may be beneficial to lower it slowly over a few weeks rather than trying to just suddenly drop it down. As you've got strong legs, low stroke rates should hopefully be relatively easier for you: imagine you're jumping horizontally when you push away.

Don't worry about intervals for the moment. As you don't enjoy them, you need to build a strong habit with sessions that you're more inclined to do.

Welcome,

You will no doubt always rate relatively high compared to a 6'6" rower, but that's offset by the fact that there's obviously some pretty decent strength there. For now, yes, look to slow down the stroke rate, and I think that ignoring the splits is probably a great idea (my ego has never let me do that!).

Regarding intervals... well there are intervals and there are intervals. There's no rule saying that they have to be flat out, and if, say, doing 5x6' helps you on the road to a 30' straight, then that's perfectly okay. Keep the rests relatively short (time for a quick stretch and to take on some water if you want) and get going again. As you become fitter, then work towards continuous pieces which will probably be the best way to improve that aerobic fitness.

Good luck!

Many PTs are not that familiar with the rowing technique, so I suggest that you watch a few of the suggested videos. You don't have much less lean mass than I do and similar length legs with more strength than mine. I would have expected that once you have the technique sorted that you will find sub 2:30 splits well within your grasp (for me these are now recovery rows at 15SPM), so 2:47s at R29 suggests that there are significant inefficiencies in your stroke. But that is true for most people when they start out and knocking minutes off 2k bests are initially not unusual. It might be helpful if you corrected the typo in your weight as well to know whether your stroke length is likely to be shortened by your stature.

I would echo the comments above. lower rating and concentrating on technique while doing rows that you enjoy is the best prescription to learn to row well and develop a regular routine. better not to exhaust yourself often as it is better to row again soon than have to recover for several days. You may find that it takes a while until the weaker muscles adapt. Most people find hip flexors initially hurt, while any core weakness will also make itself felt. Given your strength, I would strongly recommend concentrating on keeping your arms straight through the first half of the stroke as you may have a tendency to pull at the catch (start) rather than push with your legs. Also try and make sure the handle travels as fast as your seat through this phase of your stroke to make full use of the power in your legs.

Enjoy your new addition and the easy gains currently available.

Thanks everyone for the rapid and helpful replies.

I can't see a way to edit my post (a permissions thing?) but my weight should be 111kg.

Consensus seems to be to slow the hell down and focus on building up the amount of time per session so that's the plan for the next few weeks. I've never done anything like this before. My only previous experience was a previous PT getting me to do 250m sprints on a C2D about 4 years ago. I looked back through my logs and it seems they were all about 36SPM and 1'08 for 250m so I guess I know who taught me that going flat out is good!

I bought the rowerg as its the only cardio equipment I've ever enjoyed using in the gym, so now I need to learn to use it properly.

I don't know if it's in any way relevant but looking at that first 2k, the SPM were pretty consistent all the way through - 29/30/29/28 but the watts were a lot higher in the first 500m - 74/52/53/54. I guess all that really confirms is that I need to slow down, pace myself and look at my technique.

Hopefully I shouldn't have too many issues with hip flexors and core strength. I'm one of those annoying people with super flexible hamstrings and hip flexors and can drop straight into pigeon pose with no stretching/warm up. I can also hold a 2 minute plank with no issues so fingers crossed I don't find myself too battered by adjusting to a regular rowing regime.

Thanks again for the welcome!

Looks like erging should work well for you!

Apologies for being a numbers nerd, but those 1:08 250m were 139W! So what you need to achieve is doing strokes of that strength, but then slowing down the recovery to give yourself time to recover ready for the next powerful stroke. If you had used as powerful a stroke at 29SPM that first 500m would have been 112W rather than 74W and your pace would have been faster than 2:30 / 500m!

I suggest that you try and row at around 22SPM initially. try to make the difference in the stroke rate all due to going bac up the rail slowly without pausing at the beginning or end of the stroke with the drive and initial arm movement the same as for faster strokes. That way you allow the flywheel to keep going giving you distance while you are recovering.

Don't obsess about the pace, but you should try and not let this fall below 3:00 / 500m as below that you are probably not converting your power into useful work. You may find this quite tiring, so better to do short stints and slowly build it up. Not intervals in the normal meaning of the word, just take a break so that you can maintain good form.

Finally, what "drag factor" are you using? This is set by the lever on the side. The appropriate position of this depends on the cleanliness of the machine and the air temperature and pressure, but probably 3-4 should be fine. This will be less forgiving of poor technique and force you to accelerate fast with your legs to get and keep the flywheel moving.

Best of luck

Iain

That’s encouraging to know. So I’m clearly capable of a decent power output, I just don’t know what I’m doing yet. There are worse positions to start from!

I know at the moment the ratio between my drive and recovery is wrong. Timing for each is similar rather than recovery being slower which if I understand right is wasting effort and what is probably sending my heart rate through the roof. At least that’s what it feels like.

I did actually do some reading on the Concept site and Dark Horse Rowing plus watching some videos so I knew enough not to whack the damper setting to 10 at the off.

I have it set to 4 and according to my log the drag factor is 111. Does that sound right?

So the key take away is stop moving faster than my heart and lungs can handle and focus on getting the power through my legs with a proper recovery so it’s sustainable.

Liathanail wrote: ↑

June 2nd, 2021, 7:25 am

I know at the moment the ratio between my drive and recovery is wrong. Timing for each is similar rather than recovery being slower which if I understand right is wasting effort and what is probably sending my heart rate through the roof. At least that’s what it feels like.

That's right, the recovery should be at least twice as long as the drive during most training and often closer to 3 times.

Liathanail wrote: ↑

June 2nd, 2021, 7:25 am

I have it set to 4 and according to my log the drag factor is 111. Does that sound right?

That sounds good. It would be interesting to know what the setting was when you did the 250s as often gym machines are left on 10, but they are often so dirty that the DF is actually only <140.

Liathanail wrote: ↑

June 2nd, 2021, 7:25 am

So the key take away is stop moving faster than my heart and lungs can handle and focus on getting the power through my legs with a proper recovery so it’s sustainable.

As for mowing fast, this is necessary but should be restricted for the drive and getting the hands back out away from the body. It is ponly the slide and perhaps the pivot forward that are slowed.

Others have correctly suggested getting technique down and going steady while building up endurance. The only thing I would add is that I have worked with and seen many strong people make amazing gains on the rower once they do build fitness and technique, so be patient and it will all come together.

Good advice from everyone. Let me echo what Iain has said. With respect to your PT, unless she/he is an active erger or experienced OTW rower, he/she would not know what to look for in a proper rowing stroke.

For someone as strong as you, your sprint splits should be faster.

Best to post a video here where there are many who have a good eye for picking up habits that cost you speed & power. I'm guessing shooting the slide, premature use of arms & early opening of the hips, common problems for inexperienced ergers, which everyone here has suffered from in the beginning.

I suggest working on technique before increasing distance and intensity. Mistakes will be easier to correct before repetition has hardwired them on your neuro-muscular pathways.

My legs are exactly the same length as yours, so I hope that you can take some comfort from the times an old shortass with arms like pieces of asparagus can manage . Plenty of progress is possible if you follow the advice of the forum sages.

Welcome to the world of erging. Everyone here was very supportive when I started and gave good advice to me. Summed up, their recommendations looked something like this:

1. Slow down your rate (spm) and make sure you are using good form.
2. Slow down your rate in order to concentrate on putting power into your stroke
3. Don't do the same workout over and over again; try new things (chase the question mark).
4. Apply good, constant pressure through the feet. Use the legs!
5. Row often and be consistent with the training.

My own advice would be don't worry if everyone on here seems to have faster times than you. It is shocking for me how good some of these folks are but that doesn't mean I'm not doing it right on my end. We are all working with a different set of variables (age, height, weight, sex, fitness, strength, schedules, health, etc.).

Have fun and keep us posted with your progress. Good luck!

Well that was a lot better. Tried again tonight and numbers look like this:

2K - 10’48, 2:41/500m SPM24, 83W avg.

Drag factor 111, Drive 0.40 sec

I adjusted my foot position so my heels were a bit lower which made it easier to really push down through my foot like doing a leg press. I also focussed on slowing down the recovery phase and SPM. Made sure I was holding the handle a lot wider and tried to make sure I kept my arms straight and didn’t pull too early.

Given that I’ve only done 4.5k in total so far I’m pretty happy with that. My limiting factor at the moment is definitely my crappy aerobic fitness. But I’m taking the positives in that that’s a big improvement from a standing start.

Time to put the metres in and nail the technique whilst building some stamina and fitness! Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement. I’ll keep you posted on progress.

Liathanail wrote: ↑

June 3rd, 2021, 5:19 pm

Well that was a lot better. Tried again tonight and numbers look like this:

2K - 10’48, 2:41/500m SPM24, 83W avg.

Drag factor 111, Drive 0.40 sec

I adjusted my foot position so my heels were a bit lower which made it easier to really push down through my foot like doing a leg press. I also focussed on slowing down the recovery phase and SPM. Made sure I was holding the handle a lot wider and tried to make sure I kept my arms straight and didn’t pull too early.

Given that I’ve only done 4.5k in total so far I’m pretty happy with that. My limiting factor at the moment is definitely my crappy aerobic fitness. But I’m taking the positives in that that’s a big improvement from a standing start.

Time to put the metres in and nail the technique whilst building some stamina and fitness! Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement. I’ll keep you posted on progress.

Well done, I cant offer you expert advice as I'm a beginner myself, 6 weeks into my training. What I can say is part of the enjoyment is learning and you clearly are. My fitness and general well-being have improved greatly over those weeks but the machine has been kind to my body. Pacing is something that is most difficult to judge but the more you do easier that gets, although it's still a challenge for me. Stick with it the more metres you do the more your body will adapt and the advice will both consciously and subconsiously help you understand the process that will meet your objectives.

Liathanail wrote: ↑

June 3rd, 2021, 5:19 pm

Time to put the metres in and nail the technique whilst building some stamina and fitness!

Well done - this ^^^^^ is it exactly. You've hit the nail on the head.

One more comment: If you're the type who is motivated by progress, keep a log of your workouts (electronically or on paper) and over the next few months you'll be rewarded many times over.

Good Luck : )