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Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 9:50 am
by Sb13ky
Hey everyone,
I’m trying to figure out drag factor for myself. I started erging back in July on an old model B. Pulled a 6:54 on my 3rd erg. Drag factor was unknown but it was probably very high. Got on a model D in august and trained around 130 and pulled a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging. Then I found out 130 may be a bit high for a lightweight. On 130 I pulled a 3:14 1000 at “2k effort” and was able to rate high late October. Ended up going down to 120. Ended up pulling a 6:45 with a bad positive split in November. In December I started training lower at 110-112 and started pulling very well. I hit all my pbs but had trouble getting down lower. But then I raced worlds and blew up big. I have tried training back up at 120 because I need to test at that drag factor but I find if I train a week at that drag my shoulders and forearms gets so fatigued I lose all strength. I was an ex swimmer so that might be the issue with some shoulder injuries.
Anyways, I find now I can get close to the times at lower drag compared to a higher drag except for mid rate work. I can do 6k work at closer to 26-27R at 1:45 compared to 28-29 at 105. But then I can pull 20k @ 22R 1:56 at 105 and 120 and the 105 feels so much easier. Any insight at all? Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier? I guess I’m just trying to figure out how I can build up to a higher drag or if anyone has had a similar experience? I’m relatively new to erging and rowing but I expected big things after pulling a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 10:08 am
by Dangerscouse
Don't overthink drag factor. It is only a means to an end, so it's very subjective as to what feels right for you, and maximises your potential.
Circa 130 is apparently like OTW resistance so that may be useful if you're thinking of doing OTW training.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 10:16 am
by hjs
Sb13ky wrote: ↑March 10th, 2021, 9:50 am
Hey everyone,
I’m trying to figure out drag factor for myself. I started erging back in July on an old model B. Pulled a 6:54 on my 3rd erg. Drag factor was unknown but it was probably very high. Got on a model D in august and trained around 130 and pulled a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging. Then I found out 130 may be a bit high for a lightweight. On 130 I pulled a 3:14 1000 at “2k effort” and was able to rate high late October. Ended up going down to 120. Ended up pulling a 6:45 with a bad positive split in November. In December I started training lower at 110-112 and started pulling very well. I hit all my pbs but had trouble getting down lower. But then I raced worlds and blew up big. I have tried training back up at 120 because I need to test at that drag factor but I find if I train a week at that drag my shoulders and forearms gets so fatigued I lose all strength. I was an ex swimmer so that might be the issue with some shoulder injuries.
Anyways, I find now I can get close to the times at lower drag compared to a higher drag except for mid rate work. I can do 6k work at closer to 26-27R at 1:45 compared to 28-29 at 105. But then I can pull 20k @ 22R 1:56 at 105 and 120 and the 105 feels so much easier. Any insight at all? Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier? I guess I’m just trying to figure out how I can build up to a higher drag or if anyone has had a similar experience? I’m relatively new to erging and rowing but I expected big things after pulling a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging.
The fact you rate up when you lower your drag does not ad up. A lower drag needs more time to let the fan stop spinning. If you and lower the drag and rate up, the drive will get very short.
And a higher drag needs higher higher rating, this to lighten the load on your body.
Overall, by the way, given your build/weight I think you should try to get your rating up. Do not mess to much with drag, get used to one and build your stroke around that.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 5:17 pm
by Sb13ky
hjs wrote: ↑March 10th, 2021, 10:16 am
Sb13ky wrote: ↑March 10th, 2021, 9:50 am
Hey everyone,
I’m trying to figure out drag factor for myself. I started erging back in July on an old model B. Pulled a 6:54 on my 3rd erg. Drag factor was unknown but it was probably very high. Got on a model D in august and trained around 130 and pulled a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging. Then I found out 130 may be a bit high for a lightweight. On 130 I pulled a 3:14 1000 at “2k effort” and was able to rate high late October. Ended up going down to 120. Ended up pulling a 6:45 with a bad positive split in November. In December I started training lower at 110-112 and started pulling very well. I hit all my pbs but had trouble getting down lower. But then I raced worlds and blew up big. I have tried training back up at 120 because I need to test at that drag factor but I find if I train a week at that drag my shoulders and forearms gets so fatigued I lose all strength. I was an ex swimmer so that might be the issue with some shoulder injuries.
Anyways, I find now I can get close to the times at lower drag compared to a higher drag except for mid rate work. I can do 6k work at closer to 26-27R at 1:45 compared to 28-29 at 105. But then I can pull 20k @ 22R 1:56 at 105 and 120 and the 105 feels so much easier. Any insight at all? Once I get on the water, will 120 feel easier? I guess I’m just trying to figure out how I can build up to a higher drag or if anyone has had a similar experience? I’m relatively new to erging and rowing but I expected big things after pulling a 6:48 after 3 weeks of erging.
The fact you rate up when you lower your drag does not ad up. A lower drag needs more time to let the fan stop spinning. If you and lower the drag and rate up, the drive will get very short.
And a higher drag needs higher higher rating, this to lighten the load on your body.
Overall, by the way, given your build/weight I think you should try to get your rating up. Do not mess to much with drag, get used to one and build your stroke around that.
With a lower drag, there is less resistance, therefore it is easier to rate up. With a drag factor of 200 I would have rate less to be able to hold the same wattage compared to 105 with a higher rate. That’s how I understand
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 6:06 pm
by hjs
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With a lower drag, there is less resistance, therefore it is easier to rate up. With a drag factor of 200 I would have rate less to be able to hold the same wattage compared to 105 with a higher rate. That’s how I understand
[/quote]
I use it just the other way around. You double up, and higher drag, more resistance and lower rating, so you start from a slower fanspeed. Thats double hard on the body.
And at lower drag ditto, double up less hard on the body.
Ofcourse we can pull faster, per stroke, on higher drag, but that does nog mean you have to. You can pull softer and instead rate up.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 6:19 pm
by Nomath
hjs wrote: ↑March 10th, 2021, 10:16 am
... A lower drag needs more time to let the fan stop spinning. If you and lower the drag and rate up, the drive will get very short.
And a higher drag needs higher higher rating, this to lighten the load on your body.
At a lower drag, you need a higher handle speed to catch up with the running flywheel. So the stroke rate will be higher for the same power and pace.
The drag factor is a personal choice to balance the two factors that determine power. At low drag : high handle speed and low average force. At high drag : low handle speed and high force.
For a more quantitative explanation : see the figure below taken from
a previous topic . The upper curve is for Drag Factor=100 ; the lower curve is for Drag Factor=150. Compare at the same power.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 10th, 2021, 6:45 pm
by MiddleAgeCRISIS
I am exploring a bit with this.
I've been rowing loads but super slow at a low drag.
I've probably lost a bit of strength but i get decent splits with a super high stroke rate.
My power output per minute is high but my power per stroke is ok - its just that im doing 36 spm.
I think doing a bit of work at both ends of the drag setting is probably the best mix. High drag for strength and low drag for a pacy leg drive.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 11th, 2021, 4:41 am
by hjs
Nomath wrote: ↑March 10th, 2021, 6:19 pm
hjs wrote: ↑March 10th, 2021, 10:16 am
... A lower drag needs more time to let the fan stop spinning. If you and lower the drag and rate up, the drive will get very short.
And a higher drag needs higher higher rating, this to lighten the load on your body.
At a lower drag, you need a higher handle speed to catch up with the running flywheel. So the stroke rate will be higher for the same power and pace.
The drag factor is a personal choice to balance the two factors that determine power. At low drag : high handle speed and low average force. At high drag : low handle speed and high force.
For a more quantitative explanation : see the figure below taken from
a previous topic . The upper curve is for Drag Factor=100 ; the lower curve is for Drag Factor=150. Compare at the same power.
Yes, you need a higher handle speed at lower drags. Does this mean you need higher ratings also, not at all. There is no direct relation between the drive fase and the recovery fase.
I myself use low drag in combination with lower ratings. I use a fast strong stroke and give the fan time to slow down.
High drag I selfom use, for sprinting I do up the drag and rate a lot higher. In general I don’t touch the drag at all. Keep resistance the same.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 11th, 2021, 5:27 am
by jamesg
I have tried training back up at 120 because I need to test at that drag factor but I find if I train a week at that drag my shoulders and forearms gets so fatigued I lose all strength.
You might have a style problem, causing shoulder and arm fatigue. Rowing is done with the legs, despite appearances. Drag is of little importance unless it destroys style, as when too high. Too low cannot hurt.
The only other setting that can cause problems is foot height. If too high you won't be able to put your weight on the stretcher for the catch, in order to use the legs, and will be forced to use your arms and shoulders, with the dire results you have seen. Your legs are much stronger, so at less risk can certainly load your CV system more than arms and legs, so offering better fitness results, for endurance in particular.
In rowing we can only change our style; all the rest such as height, weight, strength is beyond short term control. So if anything goes wrong, start with style.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 11th, 2021, 6:24 am
by Nomath
hjs wrote: ↑March 11th, 2021, 4:41 am
..
Yes, you need a higher handle speed at lower drags. Does this mean you need higher ratings also, not at all. There is no direct relation between the drive fase and the recovery fase.
The graph I showed is from an investigation on the effects of the drag factor on physiologal aspects and rowing economy. The participants were 12 experienced club rowers. They were asked to row by stepwise increments in power, each power step held for 3 minutes, and were free to choose the stroke rate. So what you see is the unforced pattern of a group.
Yes, you can tweak the drive and recovery phase in a different way if you like.
At the highest power in the graph the participants were asked to go 'all-out' for 3 mins. Note that the stroke rate difference is the highest at this maximal power. When play time is over and a serious challenge is at hand, low drag calls for much higher stroke rates.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 11th, 2021, 7:26 am
by hjs
Nomath wrote: ↑March 11th, 2021, 6:24 am
hjs wrote: ↑March 11th, 2021, 4:41 am
..
Yes, you need a higher handle speed at lower drags. Does this mean you need higher ratings also, not at all. There is no direct relation between the drive fase and the recovery fase.
The graph I showed is from an investigation on the effects of the drag factor on physiologal aspects and rowing economy. The participants were 12 experienced club rowers. They were asked to row by stepwise increments in power, each power step held for 3 minutes, and were free to choose the stroke rate. So what you see is the unforced pattern of a group.
Yes, you can tweak the drive and recovery phase in a different way if you like.
At the highest power in the graph the participants were asked to go 'all-out' for 3 mins. Note that the stroke rate difference is the highest at this maximal power. When play time is over and a serious challenge is at hand, low drag calls for much higher stroke rates.
I see, I myself have not seen that patern. Apart from the max effort. What I often see, people going for higher drags, do use higher rating and vice versa. So thats different from using a range of drags for every rower. This is about what kind of rower does tend to favor what kind of drags. I also think to see that non sprinters favor higher drags.
Not talking about weightlifters, crossfitters, those all tend to favor heavy settings.
Maybe a poll about peoples, drag, rating, pace etc could give more light.
I rated my lowest 2k, racing at my lowest drag. But never used high drags. Around 125 max, lowest 103. Times in the 6.2x range. And never been able to rate up well. My bread and butter rating is 30/31 over 2.
I think if a rower needs to
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 11th, 2021, 6:25 pm
by btlifter
Drag is tough, due to multiple (and sometimes contradictory) variables.
Having said that, my personal experience and logic is aligned with Henry's, which might be relevant considering our vastly different approaches.
I am a high-drag guy. 1k and under I use full drag (around 220 on my machine). And I rarely go under 200 for any timed-piece (I do row at a much lower drag often to try to improve my technique, though that is tangential to this).
In any case, the higher the spm, the higher the drag I will have. Taken to the relative extreme, if I'm doing a longer session at an r20 or r18 I am much quicker if I lower the drag significantly - with a high drag it feels as though I lose all momentum and I have to overcome much inertia with each stroke. Conversely, the higher the spm the "easier" it is to have a high drag. Of course, the important caveat is that one must have the requisite strength/stamina to maintain a relatively high rating with a high drag.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 11th, 2021, 10:31 pm
by Sb13ky
btlifter wrote: ↑March 11th, 2021, 6:25 pm
Drag is tough, due to multiple (and sometimes contradictory) variables.
Having said that, my personal experience and logic is aligned with Henry's, which might be relevant considering our vastly different approaches.
I am a high-drag guy. 1k and under I use full drag (around 220 on my machine). And I rarely go under 200 for any timed-piece (I do row at a much lower drag often to try to improve my technique, though that is tangential to this).
In any case, the higher the spm, the higher the drag I will have. Taken to the relative extreme, if I'm doing a longer session at an r20 or r18 I am much quicker if I lower the drag significantly - with a high drag it feels as though I lose all momentum and I have to overcome much inertia with each stroke. Conversely, the higher the spm the "easier" it is to have a high drag. Of course, the important caveat is that one must have the requisite strength/stamina to maintain a relatively high rating with a high drag.
Okay I understand better. My 2nd 2k I did a 6:48 with 130 drag at about 32 rate. I probably didn’t pull as hard. Now I’m pulling harder. With higher drag you need to keep the fan going therefore rating higher. That took me a while to understand but I get it now.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 12th, 2021, 5:54 pm
by ampire
Higher drag helps with sprinting at high ratings because you need the machine's fan to decelerate quicker during the brief recovery window between strokes.
Re: Figuring out the right drag factor
Posted: March 13th, 2021, 7:44 am
by reuben
Tiny lightbulbs are starting to flicker on for me. I'm starting to understand a few things better, and the relationships between them. Thanks for this thread.