Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
winniewinser
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by winniewinser » March 15th, 2024, 11:26 am

p_b82 wrote:
March 15th, 2024, 7:16 am
QQ for folks that have done a FM.

I completed a 30k training row last night, and ID'd a few more tweaks I need to apply before the main event (2.5 weeks out now) - better finger wrapping, add another protective layer to the balls of my feet (rowing in just socks) & try to use my arms a little less overall.

But I understand that common wisdom is that if you can do 30k, you can do 42k - I'm loosely planning on doing 36k in 8/9 days time; which would leave another 9/10 days until the FM attempt.

It would be my last "dress rehearsal" and then no more changes to the process - bar a very minor tweaks like snack fruit/food options on the day.

Does this sounds sensible to folks in general, or is it better to not go quite so far relatively close to the end?

Trying to decide the risk/reward of potential injury vs added benefit of really knowing what it will feel like in that last hour.
For my one and only FM I did 20k, 25k, 35k then the FM. I was rowing a lot of metres back then and was doing HM's regularly too. It certainly helped me to have completed the 35k and to be able to think it's only another 30mins or so.

My target was just to complete it so pace wasn't a concern at the time. The boredom was a factor so I watched a long film if I remember correctly. Can't remember of I took any breaks but my log for the session looks like I did....so I must have had someone to press the erg buttons to keep it active too.

3:08:12.8 42,195m 2:13.8 146 802 20 132
23:45.8 5,275m 2:15.1 142 787 20 127
23:41.1 10,550m 2:14.7 143 792 20 126
23:40.9 15,825m 2:14.6 143 793 20 128
23:38.7 21,100m 2:14.4 144 795 20 126
24:50.5 26,375m 2:21.2 124 727 19 131
23:01.1 31,650m 2:10.9 156 836 21 133
23:16.5 36,925m 2:12.3 151 819 21 132
22:18.2 42,195m 2:06.9 171 888 22 155

Good luck with your FM
6'2" 52yo
Alex
Recent 2k - 7:19
All time 2k - 6:50.2 (LW)

p_b82
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by p_b82 » March 15th, 2024, 11:36 am

Thanks for the comments Glenn, Ian & winnie;

I was planning regardless to do 20k on the penultimate weekend, as that would allow me to test the minor alterations with a higher degree of confidence of not hitting issues from those changes + test pre attempt meal timings again as I won't be starting at 4:30pm.
Dangerscouse wrote:
March 15th, 2024, 10:41 am
It probably boils down to how confident you are, do you feel like it will help, and what is your rate of recovery? Given your recent back issue I'd be at least slightly cautious about it, but it could also be just what your back & mind needs, especially if you're still worrying a bit about it.

How did you feel after your 30k? I think that will be a big part of your decision making
I think that is the reason I've a few doubts as to what would be best - I did start to get a sore bum at about 1hr30; which was a distraction and so that was why I had the "you've got half way distance in a FM reward" but in honestly I felt great - the minute's break left me refreshed and revitalised; to such a degree I had to keep myself reigned in - and even then I let the pace rise in the last 3k - but kept Hr below zone5 threshold.

biceps are aching today - and were sorest yesterday - back is tired feeling but not sore, and legs are a little leaden; I planned 48hr rest as it's the rugby tomorrow anyway but assuming I'm feeling recovered sunday then it will probably help guide the distance decision.
If things are a bit tired feeling then I'll probably not do anything longer and just ride the confidence I've gained from this "imperfect" 30k.
M 6'4 born:'82
PB's
'23: 6k=25:23.5, HM=1:36:08.0, 30'=7,077m, 60'=13,702m
'24: 500m=1:37.7, 2k=7:44.80, 5k=20:42.9, 10k=42:13.1, FM=3:18:35.4
Logbook

Dangerscouse
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » March 15th, 2024, 3:29 pm

p_b82 wrote:
March 15th, 2024, 11:36 am
I think that is the reason I've a few doubts as to what would be best - I did start to get a sore bum at about 1hr30; which was a distraction and so that was why I had the "you've got half way distance in a FM reward" but in honestly I felt great - the minute's break left me refreshed and revitalised; to such a degree I had to keep myself reigned in - and even then I let the pace rise in the last 3k - but kept Hr below zone5 threshold.

biceps are aching today - and were sorest yesterday - back is tired feeling but not sore, and legs are a little leaden; I planned 48hr rest as it's the rugby tomorrow anyway but assuming I'm feeling recovered sunday then it will probably help guide the distance decision.
If things are a bit tired feeling then I'll probably not do anything longer and just ride the confidence I've gained from this "imperfect" 30k.
You'll probably PITA whatever happens, but a quick stretch might be all you need.

Put 35k on the monitor and see how it goes. HD if you honestly feel like it's not worth it, but always interrogate every decision, not least as this can be detrimental on the big day. You'll have a recent experience of stopping, which can play tricks with your head. If you honestly know you stopped for the right reasons then it can help manage those thoughts, and vice versa.

Thoroughly analyse your thoughts and be totally confident that you're not letting laziness or excuses dictate your thoughts and decisions
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

GlennUk
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » March 17th, 2024, 2:20 am

I have come to the view some while back, that = we are not training to row a particular distance per se, but training our bodies to row for long periods of time.

Whilst this may seem a bit pedantic because our targets are usually a defined distance, this concept becomes clearer when one thinks of ultra long distances.

I am not sure anyone who does 75% of an iron man event the week before they do the iron man, but when it comes to shorter distances the recevied wisdom is that we have to do this.

In fact id go so far as to say that much of what we do in erging is based on received wisdom as opposed to anything 'scientific' that's not to say that everyhitng is rubbish, just that it is probably less than ideal much of the time for all athletes.

All i can tell you is that for the FM/100k plans i s followed in neither case did the training recommend erging for more than 50% of the duration i actually did row for the final events.

For the FM i rowed a 3hr11mins time which was ok.

I didn't row 100k, i di 116k instead 16% further than the plan was tailored for and rowed to complete, but my longest row in training was 30% of the duration i actually rowed for.
Age 61, on 2/01/22 I rowed 115,972m 11hrs 17m 57s and raised £19k for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/ Thanks for all the support

Donations to https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

p_b82
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by p_b82 » March 17th, 2024, 8:19 am

I'm still feeling some fatigue in the back today, not sore, but a bit low on reserves. I think probably mentally it would be better for me to drop down total volume in a session but do a few more sessions per week of a shorter distance; to align with what Glenn was saying - get the volume total rather than for the specific distance.

The 30k, I think, has done what it needed to: given me confidence that my back can take it in a single session as long as I work on my posture, let me know that pacing myself properly I can keep my HR and breathing down to a level that it all feels "easy" & 2 mins break is far too long if I want to keep the pace close to my actual rowing pace.
If I set off on a row with the thought I might stop if I'm not feeling it, I will stop - or it will be a horrible mental slog - neither of which I think will add value so close to the attempt itself.

Appreciate the thoughts/comments.
M 6'4 born:'82
PB's
'23: 6k=25:23.5, HM=1:36:08.0, 30'=7,077m, 60'=13,702m
'24: 500m=1:37.7, 2k=7:44.80, 5k=20:42.9, 10k=42:13.1, FM=3:18:35.4
Logbook

btlifter
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by btlifter » March 17th, 2024, 10:07 am

GlennUk wrote:
March 17th, 2024, 2:20 am
I have come to the view some while back, that = we are not training to row a particular distance per se, but training our bodies to row for long periods of time.

Whilst this may seem a bit pedantic because our targets are usually a defined distance, this concept becomes clearer when one thinks of ultra long distances.

I am not sure anyone who does 75% of an iron man event the week before they do the iron man, but when it comes to shorter distances the recevied wisdom is that we have to do this.

In fact id go so far as to say that much of what we do in erging is based on received wisdom as opposed to anything 'scientific' that's not to say that everyhitng is rubbish, just that it is probably less than ideal much of the time for all athletes.

All i can tell you is that for the FM/100k plans i s followed in neither case did the training recommend erging for more than 50% of the duration i actually did row for the final events.

For the FM i rowed a 3hr11mins time which was ok.

I didn't row 100k, i di 116k instead 16% further than the plan was tailored for and rowed to complete, but my longest row in training was 30% of the duration i actually rowed for.
I mostly agree with this, Glenn. The one caveat, imo, is nutrition. Personally, I can get through about 2.5 hours (uncomfortably, I don't recommend it) with nothing to eat/drink. And, if I add even a few hundred calories and a bit of fluids, 3 easy hours ain't too bad.

But, if if the aim is 7, or 10+ hours, deliberate nutrition becomes critical. And, without some way of both learning and practicing, we're taking a big gamble.

With that in mind, in the absence of any long test efforts, how did you determine what your nutrition would be for your 116k?
chop stuff and carry stuff

Dangerscouse
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » March 17th, 2024, 11:02 am

p_b82 wrote:
March 17th, 2024, 8:19 am
If I set off on a row with the thought I might stop if I'm not feeling it, I will stop - or it will be a horrible mental slog - neither of which I think will add value so close to the attempt itself.

Appreciate the thoughts/comments.
We are all wired differently so it's finding the right balance. If you think that's the best course, take it but I will add, make sure that you own it too.

I've made many many mistakes in my ultra distances but I always reminded myself that I decided to do it, so I'm going to own it. It's a lot of guesswork and slight tweaks to find what works, but this also may not work on any given day for whatever reason.

You've done 30k, so you're ready to go. Tapering & preparation is what's needed now you've decided.
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

Dangerscouse
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » March 17th, 2024, 11:10 am

GlennUk wrote:
March 17th, 2024, 2:20 am
I have come to the view some while back, that = we are not training to row a particular distance per se, but training our bodies to row for long periods of time.

Whilst this may seem a bit pedantic because our targets are usually a defined distance, this concept becomes clearer when one thinks of ultra long distances.

I am not sure anyone who does 75% of an iron man event the week before they do the iron man, but when it comes to shorter distances the recevied wisdom is that we have to do this.

In fact id go so far as to say that much of what we do in erging is based on received wisdom as opposed to anything 'scientific' that's not to say that everyhitng is rubbish, just that it is probably less than ideal much of the time for all athletes.

All i can tell you is that for the FM/100k plans i s followed in neither case did the training recommend erging for more than 50% of the duration i actually did row for the final events.

For the FM i rowed a 3hr11mins time which was ok.

I didn't row 100k, i di 116k instead 16% further than the plan was tailored for and rowed to complete, but my longest row in training was 30% of the duration i actually rowed for.
I agree that accepted wisdom is a bit too prevalent for my liking, but that might be down to how I think, learn and adapt. My biggest issue with it is that people become too dogmatic in their opinions, and any other option has to be wrong / substandard. I always try to caveat everything I say as in reality it's just what works for me, but sometimes.

I'm still amazed that there's a recommendation to only row up to 50% of the distance, as I know from my experience that would be detrimental. There's clearly a structured reasoning behind it, but I'd never consider it for when I do another FM.

Cam makes a good point about nutrition and understanding what is needed and when. This can definitely be a significant issue, with either too much or too little.
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

elpaca
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by elpaca » March 18th, 2024, 12:42 am

Hi all,
I’m gearing up for a full marathon in the next month or so, and wanted a bit of general guidance from the experienced folks on this thread!

I was fully prepped for 2ks about 2 months back, but after hitting my goal on that front dialed back the speed work and got back to weightlifting (which quite frankly I really enjoy). I kept the 3 sessions of longer steady state work per week though… so squat/bench/deadlift on M/W/F then rowing on T/Th/Sat or Sun.

Over the past three weekends I’ve dialed up the weekend row - 20k then 25k then 30k today.

I’d say that generally it’s gone ok, although I wasn’t as happy today in my 30k as last weekends 25k, but I think it might just be general tiredness after a long week.

My big picture goal was to hit a sub 3hr on marathon, but could only do 2.13.0 splits today (did 2.11.0 splits on 25k last weekend). I feel there’s a bit more in the tank but it does seem a long way off.

Need to figure out my hydration/snack plan a bit better, just had some gummies and some tailwind today and I need some additional fuel.

I guess my general query is whether folk think there would be value in a bit more middle distance speed work, ease off the lifting for the next month or so, then get some proper rest in the lead up? Reckon I’d have a shot at sub 3?
M - '87 - 5’7” - 190lb

500m: 1:39.2 (Nov23)
1k: 3:30.5 (Dec23)
2k: 6:59.0 (Jan24)
5k: 19:18.2 (Aug23)
HM: 1:27:38.0 (Nov23)
FM: 2:58:59.5 (Apr24)

"I want you to remember two things. Do it right. Finish it. Very simple. Do it right. Finish it."

iain
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by iain » March 18th, 2024, 9:21 am

Others have more experience than me, but I would definitely think that you would benefit from doing some work close to your 5k pace as you need to build resilience rowing for significant periods below FM pace. Looks like you could beat your 5k PB as well. I would also say that most people drop off quite a bit in pace from HM to FM, so for a sub-3 I would say you need to be able to do an HM closer to 1:26:30 and so I would recommend gearing up for a full on HM first if the sub-3 is important to you. But ultimately it depends more on your mental toughness, I like to have positive experiences to focus on when it gets tough as defeatism can all to easily creep in on long rows.

Good luck.

- Iain
55, lightweight in pace, trying to get back to Lwt by gravity. Currently training 3 times a week after a break to slowly regain the pitiful fitness I achieved a few years ago. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

Sakly
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Sakly » March 18th, 2024, 10:41 am

I did no change in my training schedule and did my first FM relatively unplanned, but I started from a different point than you do, so I would agree to what Ian wrote.
Further I had no specific goal for the first FM, as I only wanted to have a first sighter how the distance feels at all. I think about having a crack at this again end of the season with a bit sharper goal of something ~1:56 ish, and I will need a good rest before that session to start fully recovered. But I will not change anything else to train specifically for it. No idea, if this will work 😄
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 358m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

Dangerscouse
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » March 18th, 2024, 11:18 am

elpaca wrote:
March 18th, 2024, 12:42 am
I guess my general query is whether folk think there would be value in a bit more middle distance speed work, ease off the lifting for the next month or so, then get some proper rest in the lead up? Reckon I’d have a shot at sub 3?
Don't overthink your 30k being a bit slower, as you allude to that could easily just be circumstances.

I'd definitely scale down the lifting as there's very little benefit for an FM, and it will just hamper recovery from the longer rows. This may also be why the 30k was slower than you hoped for as there will be a tipping point that you can't recover from as quickly.

I did find getting comfortable with faster paces at medium distances was helpful. It's a different type of discomfort, but it's a useful memory that you managed to cope with it.

In all honesty, I'd say a sub three (2:08 pace) is going to be very tough unless you're able to do at least 2:06, possibly 2:05 for a 30k, but never say never and with a great mindset you possibly could prove me wrong. I hope you do.
50 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:19; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,488m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

ahooton
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by ahooton » March 18th, 2024, 2:26 pm

elpaca wrote:
March 18th, 2024, 12:42 am
Hi all,
I’m gearing up for a full marathon in the next month or so, and wanted a bit of general guidance from the experienced folks on this thread!

I was fully prepped for 2ks about 2 months back, but after hitting my goal on that front dialed back the speed work and got back to weightlifting (which quite frankly I really enjoy). I kept the 3 sessions of longer steady state work per week though… so squat/bench/deadlift on M/W/F then rowing on T/Th/Sat or Sun.

Over the past three weekends I’ve dialed up the weekend row - 20k then 25k then 30k today.

I’d say that generally it’s gone ok, although I wasn’t as happy today in my 30k as last weekends 25k, but I think it might just be general tiredness after a long week.

My big picture goal was to hit a sub 3hr on marathon, but could only do 2.13.0 splits today (did 2.11.0 splits on 25k last weekend). I feel there’s a bit more in the tank but it does seem a long way off.

Need to figure out my hydration/snack plan a bit better, just had some gummies and some tailwind today and I need some additional fuel.

I guess my general query is whether folk think there would be value in a bit more middle distance speed work, ease off the lifting for the next month or so, then get some proper rest in the lead up? Reckon I’d have a shot at sub 3?
I think you could probably do it now but it’s going to hurt. It depends how much you want that sub 3 hour. If someone said they’d pay your mortgage if you did it, you’d do it! When there is nothing on the line, that’s when mental strength comes in. I am not an experienced erger but know the endurance mind games well
due a military background.

I will say I was probably in the same shape as you when I did it (certainly similar PBs, but I am 6’4) but it was a good 2/3 weeks to properly recover.

I just had my wife throw half a pint of water down my throat every 30 minutes, took about 5 seconds each time. Didn’t eat anything but loaded up the day before and had porridge for breakfast.

Good luck with it mate.
M 6’4. 96Kg 43
2k - 6:44.0
5k - 18:20.7
6k - 22:07.9
10k - 37:49
30 mins-8067m
1hr - 15513m
HM - 1:21.44
FM - 2:56.56

GlennUk
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Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » March 22nd, 2024, 3:33 am

btlifter wrote:
March 17th, 2024, 10:07 am
I mostly agree with this, Glenn. The one caveat, imo, is nutrition. Personally, I can get through about 2.5 hours (uncomfortably, I don't recommend it) with nothing to eat/drink. And, if I add even a few hundred calories and a bit of fluids, 3 easy hours ain't too bad.

But, if if the aim is 7, or 10+ hours, deliberate nutrition becomes critical. And, without some way of both learning and practicing, we're taking a big gamble.

With that in mind, in the absence of any long test efforts, how did you determine what your nutrition would be for your 116k?
FWIW in my training for the 116K i did a couple of marathons in the 2 weeks leading up to the event (the longest sessions were 3.5hrs) and i never ate during those sessions but i suspect i drank. They were 100k at 'race pace'.

For context I was 61 for both my 116k and FM PB.

Looking back at my logbook the FMs i did in training were at c2:28.x pace which compares with my FM PB 2:16.x 9 months later, on current rankings better than average, about 6xth percentile.

In my training for my both FM and 116k, I dont recall eating during the longer training sessions i may have done but i don't recall doing so, i did drink (a mix of orange squash, with 5g salt and 28g sugar added) routinely all throughout my training and during both rows. I did eat during the 116k, mix of bananas and cereal bars (I dont recommend cereal bars!!!) .

I didn't eat during my FM and drank sparingly, I never measured the intake but i didnt drink like i did on the 116k, which after the 1st hr was every 20mins or so.

Depending on the relative pace one is rowing at, one may, or may not need to eat during a FM, however to achieve our best some carb intake is likley to be beneficial from what i have read, in my case i relied on my natural body storage, supplemented with the added sugar in my drink as opposed to 'food'.

In my limited FM experience, my limiting factor was my inability to row above my anaerobic threshold continually (i was rowing for an hour at or slightly above 90% of HRmax before i had to reduce my pace/effort) has i have rowed a little more conservatively i would have likley taken 3 mins or so off my time, maybe ill give it another go when ive fisniehd with sprints.
Age 61, on 2/01/22 I rowed 115,972m 11hrs 17m 57s and raised £19k for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/ Thanks for all the support

Donations to https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

Elizabeth
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Posts: 374
Joined: February 27th, 2022, 10:32 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Elizabeth » March 31st, 2024, 6:17 pm

elpaca wrote:
March 18th, 2024, 12:42 am
I guess my general query is whether folk think there would be value in a bit more middle distance speed work, ease off the lifting for the next month or so, then get some proper rest in the lead up? Reckon I’d have a shot at sub 3?
Speaking for me personally, I would make sure that sleep and nutrition were dialed in before easing off the weights, especially if they're something you enjoy. I lifted right up to my latest 100k without issues. (Normal strength session Friday, individual 100k Sunday).
IG: eltgilmore

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