Concept2 Forum

There seems to be a ‘standard technique’ for the Rowerg, which I suppose over time has proved to be the most effective. From this the same advice goes out to newbies - shins vertical, don’t over compress, hinge at the hips, sit tall, 11-1 o’clock, nice power curve etc.
Watching rowers at the World Champs pushing good times raises question about the ‘standard’ though.
In my race (M55) the winner, Kent Pettersson from Sweden pulled 6:21.9. If he’d posted his video on here he would have had lots of advice on how to correct his faults. His shins never got anywhere near vertical, maybe 90 degree bend at the knees with a quick, short, powerful half slide leg drive, body rock at the same time and really hard pull into his torso at the end. Not much lean back. He seemed to leave half a stroke on the rail every time but beat the rest of us.
Others with hands going up and down, excessive lean back and others.
Maybe individual techniques suit certain people?

The "correct" technique that you see in the C2 videos, for example, is based on rowing a boat. A rowing shell is much less forgiving of poor technique. I've read articles (for rowers) talking about how to use the erg to not develop bad habits, even using it to improve technique.

Having said that, you're right. Pure strength with "bad" form can pull some incredible times, look at some Crossfitters. The erg has its own characteristics and even some elite rowers may show a different form on that machine. My comment for most of us mere mortals, like you noted, is think how much faster they might be if they used a more efficient, smoother, "correct" technique.

Tony Cook wrote: ↑

February 24th, 2021, 1:02 pm

There seems to be a ‘standard technique’ for the Rowerg, which I suppose over time has proved to be the most effective. From this the same advice goes out to newbies - shins vertical, don’t over compress, hinge at the hips, sit tall, 11-1 o’clock, nice power curve etc.
Watching rowers at the World Champs pushing good times raises question about the ‘standard’ though.
In my race (M55) the winner, Kent Pettersson from Sweden pulled 6:21.9. If he’d posted his video on here he would have had lots of advice on how to correct his faults. His shins never got anywhere near vertical, maybe 90 degree bend at the knees with a quick, short, powerful half slide leg drive, body rock at the same time and really hard pull into his torso at the end. Not much lean back. He seemed to leave half a stroke on the rail every time but beat the rest of us.
Others with hands going up and down, excessive lean back and others.
Maybe individual techniques suit certain people?

I'm inclined to agree with you, Tony. While I think that it is probably best practice for most (all?) of us to begin by trying to emulate "proper form" as much as we can, I can't dismiss the facts that:
1. We each have different lever lengths
2. We each have different mobility
3. We each have different muscle fiber types, and different relative levels of strength vs. endurance
4. Many top ergers' form is "imperfect"
5. As you point out - erging is NOT otw rowing

Physics and biomechanics don't change, but the individual application of each surely must be adjusted, at least to a degree?

Of course, there is always the counterpoint that - when looking at anybody high level of anything who employs "imperfect form" they would improve by "correcting" their form. No doubt that is sometimes true, yet I also know that - in any high level sport - there are many top performers whose techniques are unique, Additionally, studies have shown (at least in running) that deliberately trying to change one's form will often result in worse performance.

The trick is being able to determine - whenever we deviate from "proper technique" whether that deviation is serving us or not. Please let me know when you've answered that question as I would like to know!

Tony Cook wrote: ↑

February 24th, 2021, 1:02 pm

There seems to be a ‘standard technique’ for the Rowerg, which I suppose over time has proved to be the most effective. From this the same advice goes out to newbies - shins vertical, don’t over compress, hinge at the hips, sit tall, 11-1 o’clock, nice power curve etc.
Watching rowers at the World Champs pushing good times raises question about the ‘standard’ though.
In my race (M55) the winner, Kent Pettersson from Sweden pulled 6:21.9. If he’d posted his video on here he would have had lots of advice on how to correct his faults. His shins never got anywhere near vertical, maybe 90 degree bend at the knees with a quick, short, powerful half slide leg drive, body rock at the same time and really hard pull into his torso at the end. Not much lean back. He seemed to leave half a stroke on the rail every time but beat the rest of us.
Others with hands going up and down, excessive lean back and others.
Maybe individual techniques suit certain people?

Or ... just think how good he could be with a decent technique!

This is a classic argument amongst golfers too. The perfect swing is the goal of nearly all, but mastered by hardly any, and indeed most are laughably different - even some pros like Harrington. One of the features at WRICH on Mo Sbihi showed him pulling the handle up to his neck rather than like a classical oar finish. Apparently Grobler tried to get him to stop doing it, but he can get better scores like that....so why wouldn't he. We all make adaptations that we think work for us and none of us knows if doing it differently would be better or not.

Standard technique is important in training, because it makes us do most work with the best muscle for that work, so trains better and reduces injury risk. But however good, it can fall apart as ratings get higher.

A good crew avoids that. Can you see why the winners won here? Or Xeno his Atlanta Final?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxFYqjgHjPU&t=1s

jamesg wrote: ↑

February 25th, 2021, 2:02 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxFYqjgHjPU&t=1s

Why does the Eton boat, seats 4 & 5, have there oars on the same side?

I think this is a common question in a lot of sports. Basketball and track athletics are other great examples, and you see some people with quite strange techniques, but they still manage to be exceptionally good at what they do e.g. Lonzo Ball's jump shot or Kirani James's running technique.

As Cam says, it's very hard to know to if it's causing a performance loss or not, as there is no real incentive to change if that person is already world class, coupled with a probable performance loss in the short term, it is a brave person how will persevere for too long if it doesn't yield results.

There is a good argument to be made that technique is only a means to an end, and as long as it avoids injury and brings success, why change it?

Why does the Eton boat, seats 4 & 5, have there oars on the same side?

With the usual arrangement, the total force on bow side is about 2 meters forward of that on stroke side; staggered rigging, i.e switching bowfour sides, evens that out, so in theory requires less rudder. At catch and release the forces on the boat are not parallel to the keel, so there will be a certain amount couple.

Same is often seen in fours too, with bow-stroke and 2-3 on the same side.

Never done it myself, so have no idea if it can be justified by steering or anything else. Certainly rudder stops the boat and unbalanced sides especially in coxless fours and pairs can be nightmare. I've lost races due to steering, but I don't think staggered rigging would have changed much.

Youtube at Henley always shows even very good (coxless) crews drifting all over the course, some even hit the booms. Hope Covid doesn't block this summer too - finals should be first Sunday in July.

Tony Cook wrote: ↑

February 24th, 2021, 1:02 pm

There seems to be a ‘standard technique’ for the Rowerg, which I suppose over time has proved to be the most effective. From this the same advice goes out to newbies - shins vertical, don’t over compress, hinge at the hips, sit tall, 11-1 o’clock, nice power curve etc.
Watching rowers at the World Champs pushing good times raises question about the ‘standard’ though.
In my race (M55) the winner, Kent Pettersson from Sweden pulled 6:21.9. If he’d posted his video on here he would have had lots of advice on how to correct his faults. His shins never got anywhere near vertical, maybe 90 degree bend at the knees with a quick, short, powerful half slide leg drive, body rock at the same time and really hard pull into his torso at the end. Not much lean back. He seemed to leave half a stroke on the rail every time but beat the rest of us.
Others with hands going up and down, excessive lean back and others.
Maybe individual techniques suit certain people?

My analysis of rowing technique suggests what I learned many eons ago (the year we swept the IRA's) leaves lots of room for improvement. My analysis suggests a much shorter stroke should be substantially better. If you would like to try out my thoughts PM me. I am looking for some guinnea pigs right now.

My analysis suggests a much shorter stroke should be substantially better.

By "better" do you mean it will offer you a longer life with better fitness and less risk of exercise induced injury? If so you are certainly justified in altering your technique, but what do you think is wrong with your current style? Has it already caused you problems that you want to avoid in future?

jamesg wrote: ↑

March 26th, 2021, 2:09 am

My analysis suggests a much shorter stroke should be substantially better.

By "better" do you mean it will offer you a longer life with better fitness and less risk of exercise induced injury? If so you are certainly justified in altering your technique, but what do you think is wrong with your current style? Has it already caused you problems that you want to avoid in future?

My thought of a "better" technique involves more power to the water (or, ergometer). I think it would little change injury risk or longevity.

There is little science involved in sports technique. (how does anyone do a double blind study? Asking someone to do something different than what they are used to will surely show that what they are used to is superior. Unless two groups are trained to different techniques it is hard to compare them scientifically.) Technique tends to change if consistent winners have a different technique than what is currently popular. Sports coaching is a follow the leader mentality.

Addendum: If one wants to change technique one cannot know if it will be an improvement unless and until they have trained themselves to be proficient at it. That is the problem. Successful people are afraid of change because they are afraid of getting worse. That scares them more than the thought of possibly getting better emboldens them.

FWIW when I learned to row the technique was very different. At the catch you hooked the oar in with a shoulder shrug, then drove your back then finally powered with the legs once your back angle was set.

You can see the older technique here in some 1976 Olympic footage. See about 40 seconds in and look at back movement in the closest boat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asxgjhGWrP4

Current rowing technique is believed faster and safer.

(aside: think there is a TON of science in sports. Look at hull shapes, the change from spoon to flag oars, the fancy swimming suits that got banned, the changes to training, etc.)

Tsnor wrote: ↑

March 26th, 2021, 4:47 pm

FWIW when I learned to row the technique was very different. At the catch you hooked the oar in with a shoulder shrug, then drove your back then finally powered with the legs once your back angle was set.

You can see the older technique here in some 1976 Olympic footage. See about 40 seconds in and look at back movement in the closest boat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asxgjhGWrP4

Current rowing technique is believed faster and safer.

(aside: think there is a TON of science in sports. Look at hull shapes, the change from spoon to flag oars, the fancy swimming suits that got banned, the changes to training, etc.)

The technique you describe was the technique I was taught in the 60's. Although our coach was very experimental and made some big changes in how we did the recovery (to minimize boat speed variation) my senior year, the year Navy swept the IRA's. That having been said, I am unaware of any science that shows one technique better than another.

I agree there is plenty of science in sports but mostly in equipment. Equipment is easy to test. Show me some science that compares different techniques. It is either non-existent of poorly designed for the most part. As an example I invented a cycling training tool that our data showed a power increase of about 40% (on average) in experienced cyclists. Only problem is it took 6-9 months of exclusive use to see those results. Had a nice side effect of improving running also. And, yes, the tool was adopted by many World and Olympic Champions. The reasons for such large improvements were multifactorial. Not a single study on the device lasted more than 6 weeks. 6 weeks was the point where many people were just getting past the transition to the new technique and power was coming back up to where it had been.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

March 26th, 2021, 4:47 pm

Current rowing technique is believed faster and safer.

Do you (or anyone here) have any clue as to what that belief is based upon?