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There is a crossover, a strong deadlift does correlate with a strong sprint. If you are not a midget.Bill wrote: ↑December 27th, 2020, 5:42 amI recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.
I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.
It's not a bad analogy and something that's not occurred to me. I think they are sufficiently different for you not to worry about rowing though unless you're into sprinting and are prone to back injuries. Your signature suggests you're no stranger to rowing so even risk at longer pieces would likley be no issue for you. When I first started erging I could hurt my lower back just by trying hard on a 30min piece.Bill wrote: ↑December 27th, 2020, 5:42 amI recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.
I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.
As somebody whose background is in powerlifting (of which the 'deadlift' represents 1/3 contested lifts) I've spent a lot of time thinking about the relationship between deadlifting and rowing. I'll regurgitate some of my disjointed thoughts below. But, they are aren't clear, and that's because I don't think the relationship between the two exercises is clear:Bill wrote: ↑December 27th, 2020, 5:42 amI recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.
I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.
Do you think the opposite also applies? Do you think rowing had helped your DLs?btlifter wrote: ↑December 27th, 2020, 10:39 amBill wrote: ↑December 27th, 2020, 5:42 am
I recently saw the indoor rowing stroke described as a Horizontal Deadlift and was wondering if that is an accurate description as I know nothing about deadlifts.
I've always been very wary of doing deadlifts and weighted squats, tend to row and cycle and single leg squats.
As somebody whose background is in powerlifting (of which the 'deadlift' represents 1/3 contested lifts) I've spent a lot of time thinking about the relationship between deadlifting and rowing. I'll regurgitate some of my disjointed thoughts below. But, they are aren't clear, and that's because I don't think the relationship between the two exercises is clear:
Anyway, here are the similarities/why it might be helpful to train the deadlift to improve at rowing - in order of relevance.
1. Both require a similar bracing of the core and torso to ensure that power is not forfeited and to protect the upper and lower spine. This is really important, and for this reason alone learning to deadlift well may be useful.
2. Similar musculature involved in both. Though rowing involves more muscles overall, and more heavily emphasizes quadriceps, there is a great deal of crossover. I would argue that developing one's deadlift from poor to a little above average is probably one of the faster ways of improving an erg time. Once one has developed much past an average level of competence (for example, 1.5x bodyweight, though this varies) there are certainly diminishing returns.
3. People who are built to be good at deadlifting (relative to other strength movements: e.g squats or cleans) are likely to be good at rowing (relative to other endurance exercises e.g. running or cycling) due to their anatomical similarities (long levers/ better leverage).
Here are the differences:
1.Row is NOT a horizontal deadlift. Though the musculature required is similar, the movement patterns are actually fairly distinct in at least two important ways:
- For most people, deadlifing requires that they focus on generating as much force as they can to overcome iniertia at the beginning of the movement. This is almost opposite to rowing where the intention is to accelerate throughout the movement. In this regard, a clean (more specifically, a "muscle clean") would much more closely approximate the force curve, I think.
- Similarly, the cue for rowing is "legs, torso, arms". For most people, trying to cue that way in a deadlift - due to the increased load - will result in hips shooting straight up, and leaving a person hunched over in a compromised position. Again, the clean much better approximates rowing in this regard.
2. Deadlifting is about trying to generate as much force as possible for a couple of seconds. Rowing requires sustaining force for a long time. This means that to row well, one must stay relaxed, which is again almost opposite to the nearly-full-body rigidity demanded to execute a deadlift.
2. Deadlifting is about looking for the most efficient way to move the bar as short of distance as possible. Rowing rewards a long stroke.
In summary:
Learning to deadlift well can probably be beneficial to most rowers, but is certainly not essential, and the suggestion that they are the same movement breaks down when examined closely.
Well, rowing certainly hasn't helped MY deadlift - because I began rowing much after I had already deadlifted the heaviest that I will ever deadlift.
Do you think the opposite also applies? Do you think rowing had helped your DLs?
I ask because my DLs are my strongest lift by a long margin (I am not a powerlifter by the way, but I like working on the 3 competitive lifts generally), and I think it is mostly due to my time spent on the rower. Same with auxiliaries - my bicep curls and low rows put the big boys in the gym to shame, only to rack up half as much when I get to the bench!
It may not be though, since I also have joint issues (shoulders and a knee) which out of the three the DL is the least affected.
I totally agree that normal rowing won't help increasing DL.btlifter wrote: ↑January 5th, 2021, 12:27 am...
Well, rowing certainly hasn't helped MY deadlift - because I began rowing much after I had already deadlifted the heaviest that I will ever deadlift.
But no, in most cases I wouldn't think that rowing would increase the amount somebody could deadlift. There simply isn't enough maximum force produced during rowing efforts. I suppose if somebody primarily did 10 second sprints at max df there could be some carryover to deadlifts, but I wouldn't count on it. Alternatively, a well-trained powerlifter may improve their recovery-ability from rowing, thus allowing them to recover better from deadlifts. My point is, there are exceptions to every "rule". But generally, no.
Having said that, I would guess that most rowers are - comparatively - better at deadlifts than bench press or squats, simply from an anatomical perspective. The long levers that lend themselves well to pulling apply well to both the erg and the deadlift bar, while being a hindrance for knee-hinge or pressing movements.
When I view this footage, speed doesn't seem to matter. In indoor rowing, after the catch, speed is of the essence. Each drive should start as an explosive horizontal movement. I venture that the initial body acceleration discriminates very accurately between elite rowers and recreational rowers. That's why the CounterMovement Jump has shown to be such a strong predictor of rowing performance.jamesg wrote: ↑January 5th, 2021, 2:17 amThis seems to be a deadlift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op9kVnSso6Q
Speed matters lots for deadlifts, a good deadlifter will be much more explosive than a good rower. Deadlifters are often good sprinters on the erg.Nomath wrote: ↑January 5th, 2021, 3:55 pmWhen I view this footage, speed doesn't seem to matter. In indoor rowing after the catch, speed is of the essence. Each drive should start as an explosive horizontal movement. I venture that the initial body acceleration discriminates very accurately between elite rowers and recreational rowers. That's why the CounterMovement Jump has shown to be such a strong predictor of rowing performance.jamesg wrote: ↑January 5th, 2021, 2:17 amThis seems to be a deadlift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op9kVnSso6Q