Concept2 Forum

Need some advice. I use rowing as cross training for cycling. Had some good results. My question is can I replace / reduce the endurance sessions and replace them with cycling? Long sweet spot distances. Good idea or? Thank you

cycling is used as a supplement by many top rowers -- the GB teams regularly do cycling camps during the early Base periods in their training, and Damir Martin actually does over 50% of his training volume on the bike, but that's because he has a bad back and has to limit his on-water rowing to 20k sessions -- then he'll cycle 60k. cycling is a low-back-and-knee load activity for rowers, but it's the opposite for a cyclist. if the bike is your focus, then the days above AeT HR, and the long days, need to be on the bike. the erg is just for a break, UT2 only, unless it's early Base.

I have to say that the question sounds a little backwards, in a couple of ways -- "I row as cross-training for cycling, so can I substitute a sweet spot session for an endurance row?" Again, if you're a cyclist, then the important workouts (the once a week long day, and the hard interval days) need to be on the bike. and if you are doing an endurance day, then you limit the intensity -- UT2 HR does get into the HR you would see in cycling power band 3, but 85-90% FTP, "sweet spot," that's definitely UT1-level intensity, and that's not an endurance day that emphasizes the calcium-calmodulin/mostly fat pathway, that's a stamina day that emphasizes the AMPK/more carbohydrate pathway.

If I was using the erg as a supplement to the bike, I'd think of this kind of structure, presuming 6 days/week

Early Base

3 days bike, 3 days erg. 2 erg days of UT1, 1 UT2. All bike days zone 2 power, 1 day long (3-5 hours) and one day you throw in some :10-:15 second sprints.

Mid-Base

3 days bike, 2 days erg. 2 bike days of sweet spot/sub-threshold, 1 day with some sprints, 1 long day. All erg UT2

Late Base

5 days bike. 2 days threshold work, 1 day of sprints. 1 day on the erg, UT3 as an easy recovery day.

Build

Specificity time. Start your zone 5 intervals on the bike, and the erg is for a laughably easy recovery day at 50% or so of HR peak, or better yet, you put the erg away until your Transition period.

Well, what are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to best at? I'd assume cycling seeing as though the rowing is cross training for you. I'd ask why you are even doing the rower if you want to be fast on a bike. If you think it will help with motivation and therefore give you a higher aerobic training load than otherwise then yes it will help but that depends on how well trained you are on the bike already.

It's going to be whole lot easier to get long distance aerobic adaptions on the bike (easier to sit on a bike for 4hrs and go ride somewhere than fly up and down on an ergo) although not as time-efficient and the rower will beat you up more. If though you want to be good at long distance erg work then start doing longer sessions on the erg. Specificity.

I’ve been rowing but not seriously for the last four years. Recently took it up more seriously, watched the videos, up my daily metres to around 10k. Saw some great improvements on the bike. I’m ok at training on the bike. I want to improve my rowing, been following the Peter plan layout sprint intervals endurance etc. So rowing has improved my core arm back strength significantly. I was lacking here. I’ve got great endurance. Just need to keep my strength up.

I saw posts that said bike was good for rowing and vice versa. I’m interested how to incorporate rowing into cycling. Looks from the above posts I can certainly bike more for endurance steady state. I assume to keep my rowing improving I should focus on quality on the C2? I just completed my first online competition 2K new PB!

My problem is I’m likely to overdo the cycling if I’m honest. I did 2.5 hours today after rowing, love it I train about 15 hours a week in total. I’m 62 years young, retired

All guidance suggestions welcomed

I'd ask why you are even doing the rower if you want to be fast on a bike.

Strength, core, back, arms. It’s made me much stronger. I was just cycling. My FTP on a recent Zwift race has jumped to 253 and I did my best ever PB 52 mins up AlpDuZwift online race. So accurate power. I have no problems on the bike, gravel, mtb, road, Zwift. But wow, rowing gave me a noticeable boost on less mileage / training. I want to know more how I might leverage both to achieve better results. I love both sports. Cycling being my first love ofc

PawsyBear wrote: ↑

November 23rd, 2020, 11:39 am

I want to know more how I might leverage both to achieve better results. I love both sports.

Sounds like you've got it figured out. Rowing was my first sport, then about 12 years of serious cycling, including racing. I never gave up the erg during all that time and I'm sure it made me stronger on the bike. I wasn't doing any detailed recording or watching results, but it just felt better to do both.

Now I'm back more to rowing and erging, but still get on the bike and it still feels strong and natural. The two sports are definitely complimentary, whether you have a dedicated plan or not. If the weather is too windy for rowing, I bike. If it's too bad overall, I erg. If my wife suggests a tandem ride, I bike. You get the idea. Enjoy and train for both.

PawsyBear wrote: ↑

November 23rd, 2020, 11:39 am

I'd ask why you are even doing the rower if you want to be fast on a bike.

Strength, core, back, arms. It’s made me much stronger. I was just cycling. My FTP on a recent Zwift race has jumped to 253 and I did my best ever PB 52 mins up AlpDuZwift online race. So accurate power. I have no problems on the bike, gravel, mtb, road, Zwift. But wow, rowing gave me a noticeable boost on less mileage / training. I want to know more how I might leverage both to achieve better results. I love both sports. Cycling being my first love ofc

The additional info of your age and a bit about background helps.

The erg does really help with core stability on the bike, though if you erg too much you start mashing gears more than you should (at least in my experience). As for leveraging both sports, why not just do 3 days on the bike, 3 days on the erg? One week, do your hard days on the bike, the next do them on the erg. Balance.

(I was a Cat 2, and now I erg more than I ride -- I do think that the erg is better "bang for the buck," but after four months of maybe riding my bike 4-5 times a month, my cycling fitness is pretty garbage, although my erg fitness is much improved...specificity, specificity....)

Big thank you to all for your suggestions. They will be incorporated. I literally had no ideas of the rowing cycling benefits and how or what I should do. I kinda bumped into this and really noticed the improvement. I did the Scottish championships as my first online2K race. Thought I’d be good to get 7:50, managed 7:41.6. I was astounded And this was from a very short training period. Sure I can go under that. I entered BRIC at the same time so couple weeks to fine tune.

PawsyBear wrote: ↑

November 23rd, 2020, 11:34 am

I’ve been rowing but not seriously for the last four years. Recently took it up more seriously, watched the videos, up my daily metres to around 10k. Saw some great improvements on the bike. I’m ok at training on the bike. I want to improve my rowing, been following the Peter plan layout sprint intervals endurance etc. So rowing has improved my core arm back strength significantly. I was lacking here. I’ve got great endurance. Just need to keep my strength up.

I saw posts that said bike was good for rowing and vice versa. I’m interested how to incorporate rowing into cycling. Looks from the above posts I can certainly bike more for endurance steady state. I assume to keep my rowing improving I should focus on quality on the C2? I just completed my first online competition 2K new PB!

My problem is I’m likely to overdo the cycling if I’m honest. I did 2.5 hours today after rowing, love it I train about 15 hours a week in total. I’m 62 years young, retired

All guidance suggestions welcomed

When you say you saw great improvements on the bike - does that mean it positively affected your power profile? If you were following the PP and doing sprint intervals that would imply those adaptions were something you were somehow lacking from the 15hrs/week of training you were doing on the bike - most of that "steady state"? What if you'd replicated the PP HIT stuff on the bike? You might've improved even more? I suppose also it comes down to how YOU respond to training volume and composition...I found it hard to bump my performance by 5W at FTP irrespective of what I did e.g. 15hrs/week steady state, less than that but with a block of vo2max intervals OR lots of FTP work or micro-intervals or whatever. The one thing that gave me a small boost was doing as much tempo (see Coggan zones) as possible in place of steady state and eschewing the HIT somewhat (except for races being HIT).

I think it's great you are seeing some benefit (in terms of core etc it will help but not as much as a dedicated core program or weights but it comes down to what you find fun and will stick at I guess moreso) just trying to understand your experience. Maybe you were "leaking power" on the bike if your body was weak before the rowing...I'd surprise that'd be to any degree though. When I was fast on a bike e.g. effectively FTP of 315W+ at a bodyweight of 65kg and 5'11 I was weak as a kitten (bad back etc often just getting out of bed) but put me on a bike and I could smash it.

PawsyBear wrote: ↑

November 23rd, 2020, 11:34 am

I’ve been rowing but not seriously for the last four years. Recently took it up more seriously, watched the videos, up my daily metres to around 10k. Saw some great improvements on the bike. I’m ok at training on the bike. I want to improve my rowing, been following the Peter plan layout sprint intervals endurance etc. So rowing has improved my core arm back strength significantly. I was lacking here. I’ve got great endurance. Just need to keep my strength up.

I saw posts that said bike was good for rowing and vice versa. I’m interested how to incorporate rowing into cycling. Looks from the above posts I can certainly bike more for endurance steady state. I assume to keep my rowing improving I should focus on quality on the C2? I just completed my first online competition 2K new PB!

My problem is I’m likely to overdo the cycling if I’m honest. I did 2.5 hours today after rowing, love it I train about 15 hours a week in total. I’m 62 years young, retired

All guidance suggestions welcomed

When you say you saw great improvements on the bike - does that mean it positively affected your power profile? If you were following the PP and doing sprint intervals that would imply those adaptions were something you were somehow lacking from the 15hrs/week of training you were doing on the bike - most of that "steady state"? What if you'd replicated the PP HIT stuff on the bike? You might've improved even more? I suppose also it comes down to how YOU respond to training volume and composition...I found it hard to bump my performance by 5W at FTP irrespective of what I did e.g. 15hrs/week steady state, less than that but with a block of vo2max intervals OR lots of FTP work or micro-intervals or whatever. The one thing that gave me a small boost was doing as much tempo (see Coggan zones) as possible in place of steady state and eschewing the HIT somewhat (except for races being HIT).

I think it's great you are seeing some benefit (in terms of core etc it will help but not as much as a dedicated core program or weights but it comes down to what you find fun and will stick at I guess moreso) just trying to understand your experience. Maybe you were "leaking power" on the bike if your body was weak before the rowing...I'd surprise that'd be to any degree though. When I was fast on a bike e.g. effectively FTP of 315W+ at a bodyweight of 65kg and 5'11 I was weak as a kitten (bad back etc often just getting out of bed) but put me on a bike and I could smash it. My rowing PBs are nowt special in comparison btw because I don't train to the same level (I have more on my plate now in life) and am older and frankly aerodynamics flattered me too on the bike.

I certainly race online Zwift. Used to differentiating my training. I’ve been able to improve on cycling FTP. The two things that have changed recently is I’m riding a cross bike and a ton more rowing. Cross bike, lot harder than road. I get more strength out of a typical couple of hours. Mix sees 3-4500m a week climbing. Older rider what I need is more strength training. Used to go to the gym but wasn’t doing anything. Poor local gym. Always liked rowing so got a C2. What I think is that I’m doing more strength training. I feel the road bike was actually making me weaker. Much like your experience. I MTB to. I was just so surprised and happy that I’ve found a new cross training that for me real has benefits. Your right we all react differently to training. Training hard enough and resting hard!