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20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 7th, 2020, 8:40 pm
by rufiedog
I am aiming for a sub 6:50 2K in February 2021. I am currently at around 7:00. Most of my volume is around 2:12 pace at 20 SPM For these sessions the damper is completely closed because with the high volume ( usually 1 hour sessions) its easy on shoulders and knees. I also do a interval session every 5 or 6 days consisting of 3X1000, 4X750, 6x500 with a DF at around 120 which seems fine. I have recently implemented a 30R20 weekly session but a bit confused where to set the DF. Today I did 7350 meters at 19SPM with the damper at 115 but seemed the pulls were harder than my interval sessions despite being less watts per stroke ( intervals are around 12 SPI. 30R20 is around 10.5 SPI.) Seems pretty hard on my body although it may be something i would acclimate to
I am slowly trying to work my way up to 8000 meters at the same SPM
My question is should the 30R20 pulls be hard thus a high damper setting in attempt to increase strength? Pulls are obviously harder and slower than at a lower DF setting whereby strokes are quicker, more efficient, and at least feel easier. Should I go for what feels efficient or concentrate on the strength aspect of the stroke by keeping damper high?
This is really bothering me so am really interested in any comments or suggestions
I am 59 years old
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 7th, 2020, 8:57 pm
by iangallagher
rufiedog wrote: ↑July 7th, 2020, 8:40 pm
I am aiming for a sub 6:50 2K in February 2021. I am currently at around 7:00. Most of my volume is around 2:12 pace at 20 SPM For these sessions the damper is completely closed because with the high volume ( usually 1 hour sessions) its easy on shoulders and knees. I also do a interval session every 5 or 6 days consisting of 3X1000, 4X750, 6x500 with a DF at around 120 which seems fine. I have recently implemented a 30R20 weekly session but a bit confused where to set the DF. Today I did 7350 meters at 19SPM with the damper at 115 but seemed the pulls were harder than my interval sessions despite being less watts per stroke ( intervals are around 12 SPI. 30R20 is around 10.5 SPI.) Seems pretty hard on my body although it may be something i would acclimate to
I am slowly trying to work my way up to 8000 meters at the same SPM
My question is should the 30R20 pulls be hard thus a high damper setting in attempt to increase strength? Pulls are obviously harder and slower than at a lower DF setting whereby strokes are quicker, more efficient, and at least feel easier. Should I go for what feels efficient or concentrate on the strength aspect of the stroke by keeping damper high?
This is really bothering me so am really interested in any comments or suggestions
I am 59 years old
Id be interested to learn more here too. I did a 30R20 yesterday and got over 8100 and set my drag factor to 115. My understanding is that the lower drag factor keeps the fly wheel spinning longer, so if the SPM is lower you want your drag to be lower.
I guess when people do sprints, the SPM is so high they can get away with a higher drag factor. Im only new to this and still learning so i'll let others chime in
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 7th, 2020, 10:12 pm
by lindsayh
in general the slower the SR the lower the DF. If you are trying to row sr20 with a high df you will using a lot of strength overcoming the slowing fan - you really want it to be just spinning along with that terrific whooshing noise. Higher DF is OK for higher rated sprinty stuff where you can get back to the next stroke before the fan slows. You are more likely to risk injury at high df and lower sr.
You will build a better/stronger stroke by concentrating on form and power at low rates. When Leo Young was training for his 500m @1:10.5 WR he spent a lot of time at low df and low rate
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 7th, 2020, 10:28 pm
by rufiedog
lindsayh wrote: ↑July 7th, 2020, 10:12 pm
in general the slower the SR the lower the DF. If you are trying to row sr20 with a high df you will using a lot of strength overcoming the slowing fan - you really want it to be just spinning along with that terrific whooshing noise. Higher DF is OK for higher rated sprinty stuff where you can get back to the next stroke before the fan slows. You are more likely to risk injury at high df and lower sr.
Agree Lindsay that with a higher DF and lower stroke rate more strength is needed in order to pull through the fan but isn't strength the focus on 30R20? Am thinking a more challenging stroke (in terms of strength ) in this session may be a good thing.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 7th, 2020, 10:52 pm
by lindsayh
rufiedog wrote: ↑July 7th, 2020, 10:28 pm
lindsayh wrote: ↑July 7th, 2020, 10:12 pm
in general the slower the SR the lower the DF. If you are trying to row sr20 with a high df you will using a lot of strength overcoming the slowing fan - you really want it to be just spinning along with that terrific whooshing noise. Higher DF is OK for higher rated sprinty stuff where you can get back to the next stroke before the fan slows. You are more likely to risk injury at high df and lower sr.
Agree Lindsay that with a higher DF and lower stroke rate more strength is needed in order to pull through the fan but isn't strength the focus on 30R20? Am thinking a more challenging stroke (in terms of strength ) in this session may be a good thing.
although a 'more challenging stroke" may not be a good stroke in terms of technique and repeatability. The best way to answer the question I guess is to test the theory by doing the piece at different dfs and see what happens
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 1:55 am
by hjs
Say you would increese the drag and use the same pace. This would make the session easier, not harder, drivetime would be longer with the slower fan.
Most of the time, putting the drag up, makes it easier to go faster, you simply have more drivetime, so the pace is faster, but.... you don,t have more fitness, so you can’t sustain this higher pace.
Re 8k. If a rower can pull 8k over a 30/20 he will not pull 6.50, most will be a good bit faster.
Given your current level, I would worry most over staying healthy. 7300 point at this not being a strongpoint. So lots to gain without messing around with drags.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 1:56 am
by Dangerscouse
rufiedog wrote: ↑July 7th, 2020, 10:28 pm
lindsayh wrote: ↑July 7th, 2020, 10:12 pm
in general the slower the SR the lower the DF. If you are trying to row sr20 with a high df you will using a lot of strength overcoming the slowing fan - you really want it to be just spinning along with that terrific whooshing noise. Higher DF is OK for higher rated sprinty stuff where you can get back to the next stroke before the fan slows. You are more likely to risk injury at high df and lower sr.
Agree Lindsay that with a higher DF and lower stroke rate more strength is needed in order to pull through the fan but isn't strength the focus on 30R20? Am thinking a more challenging stroke (in terms of strength ) in this session may be a good thing.
Imo, strength doesn't have the same literal meaning in this instance and it has to be considered as the ability to produce a better result and the drag is just your medium to that end. If you find that a higher drag feels better, and critically you don't lose technique and form as you get tired, then it's possibly worth using a higher drag, but be aware that this will increase your chances of injury so it has to be considered on a risk / reward basis.
As you say the 30r20 felt notably harder than your intervals this indicates to me that you're going to be losing form as you get tired and therefore a higher drag will only make you more susceptible to injury. I'll use a drag of circa 115-120 for a 30r20 as I don't see any benefit from going higher as it will just lead to a slower pace and final distance as I will tire quicker and have to back off.
If you want to increase strength I'd be far more inclined to do that through weight training and / or calisthenics.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 4:54 am
by Tony Cook
I’m new to this too and also would really like to go sub 6:50 for a 2k. I’m a similar age to the OP.
My 30 SPM 20’ is 8,038 at DF 120.
My best 2k is 6:54.6 at DF 130.
I’m thinking of upping my 2k DF to 135 or 140 but I wouldn’t up my 30/20 DF.
I don’t know if there is any correlation between the two times/distances e.g. a 7’ 2k should mean an 8,000 30’.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 5:02 am
by hjs
Tony Cook wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 4:54 am
I’m new to this too and also would really like to go sub 6:50 for a 2k. I’m a similar age to the OP.
My 30 SPM 20’ is 8,038 at DF 120.
My best 2k is 6:54.6 at DF 130.
I’m thinking of upping my 2k DF to 135 or 140 but I wouldn’t up my 30/20 DF.
I don’t know if there is any correlation between the two times/distances e.g. a 7’ 2k should mean an 8,000 30’.
Relation is roughly 30/20 is 70% of 2k pace. Your 2k is way off, your height does help your rate 20 stuff.
If you like the feel of a slower drive higher drag is fine. But it won’t give you free pace.
8k points to a 6.40 2k
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 5:05 am
by Carl Watts
Dont change the drag factor at all. DF set to 131 to 134 it changes a bit by itself depending on rating. Mostly do 20spm these days but the 2000m rows are 23 to 24spm. The pace simply increases with rating.
The best 30R20 so far this season is 7701m.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 5:28 am
by nick rockliff
Since 2005 I've used the same DF of 123 for everything including a 1.44.9 30r20.
As Henry says, you will go faster with a higher DF but will not be able to sustain it.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 6:03 am
by Tony Cook
hjs wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 5:02 am
Tony Cook wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 4:54 am
I’m new to this too and also would really like to go sub 6:50 for a 2k. I’m a similar age to the OP.
My 30 SPM 20’ is 8,038 at DF 120.
My best 2k is 6:54.6 at DF 130.
I’m thinking of upping my 2k DF to 135 or 140 but I wouldn’t up my 30/20 DF.
I don’t know if there is any correlation between the two times/distances e.g. a 7’ 2k should mean an 8,000 30’.
Relation is roughly 30/20 is 70% of 2k pace. Your 2k is way off, your height does help your rate 20 stuff.
If you like the feel of a slower drive higher drag is fine. But it won’t give you free pace.
8k points to a 6.40 2k
I don’t understand the 70% of a pace bit. My 2k pace is 1:44 or 104 secs. 70% of that is 73 secs, but you are not suggesting I could do 30’ at 1:13 pace. If I flip the numbers my 30’ pace is 1:52 so 112 secs x 70% = 78.4. Again I’m never going to be doing 2k at 1:18 pace.
I am pleased to think I have potential to do 6:40 for 2k (but can imagine the burning lungs and pounding chest). Do suggest that I would pace better with a lower DF for the 2k?
Thanks.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 6:14 am
by MartinSH4321
Tony Cook wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 6:03 am
hjs wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 5:02 am
Tony Cook wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 4:54 am
I’m new to this too and also would really like to go sub 6:50 for a 2k. I’m a similar age to the OP.
My 30 SPM 20’ is 8,038 at DF 120.
My best 2k is 6:54.6 at DF 130.
I’m thinking of upping my 2k DF to 135 or 140 but I wouldn’t up my 30/20 DF.
I don’t know if there is any correlation between the two times/distances e.g. a 7’ 2k should mean an 8,000 30’.
Relation is roughly 30/20 is 70% of 2k pace. Your 2k is way off, your height does help your rate 20 stuff.
If you like the feel of a slower drive higher drag is fine. But it won’t give you free pace.
8k points to a 6.40 2k
I don’t understand the 70% of a pace bit. My 2k pace is 1:44 or 104 secs. 70% of that is 73 secs, but you are not suggesting I could do 30’ at 1:13 pace. If I flip the numbers my 30’ pace is 1:52 so 112 secs x 70% = 78.4. Again I’m never going to be doing 2k at 1:18 pace.
I am pleased to think I have potential to do 6:40 for 2k (but can imagine the burning lungs and pounding chest). Do suggest that I would pace better with a lower DF for the 2k?
Thanks.
It's watts, not pace.
A 8k 30' is about 250W, a 6:40 2k 350W, so about 70%.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 6:24 am
by Tony Cook
MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 6:14 am
Tony Cook wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 6:03 am
hjs wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 5:02 am
Relation is roughly 30/20 is 70% of 2k pace. Your 2k is way off, your height does help your rate 20 stuff.
If you like the feel of a slower drive higher drag is fine. But it won’t give you free pace.
8k points to a 6.40 2k
I don’t understand the 70% of a pace bit. My 2k pace is 1:44 or 104 secs. 70% of that is 73 secs, but you are not suggesting I could do 30’ at 1:13 pace. If I flip the numbers my 30’ pace is 1:52 so 112 secs x 70% = 78.4. Again I’m never going to be doing 2k at 1:18 pace.
I am pleased to think I have potential to do 6:40 for 2k (but can imagine the burning lungs and pounding chest). Do suggest that I would pace better with a lower DF for the 2k?
Thanks.
It's watts, not pace.
A 8k 30' is about 250W, a 6:40 2k 350W, so about 70%.
Perfect sense. Thanks.
I never think about Watts, other than when changing a light bulb.
Re: 20R30 DF Question
Posted: July 8th, 2020, 6:55 am
by hjs
Tony Cook wrote: ↑July 8th, 2020, 6:03 am
I don’t understand the 70% of a pace bit. My 2k pace is 1:44 or 104 secs. 70% of that is 73 secs, but you are not suggesting I could do 30’ at 1:13 pace. If I flip the numbers my 30’ pace is 1:52 so 112 secs x 70% = 78.4. Again I’m never going to be doing 2k at 1:18 pace.
I am pleased to think I have potential to do 6:40 for 2k (but can imagine the burning lungs and pounding chest). Do suggest that I would pace better with a lower DF for the 2k?
Thanks.
Sorry, its about watts. Your 152.5 30/20 is 246 watt, if that would be 70%, 351 would be 100. 1.40 pace.
You being a tall man could mean you are relative good at lower rates. Given the strokelenght you can use, but still think you could do better on the 2k. And yes, its very hard work if you go all in....
Re Drag, can’t say, again your height gives you plenty of time to pull a good stroke at modest drag. But some people like the heavy feel of higher drag. You have to find out yourself. It won’t make a big difference. A strong rower is a strong rower on any drag.
Edit Martin already got it
