Concept2 Forum

Relatively new rower here (started last october), struggling to maintain leg strength during covid. Currently my training looks like around 4 sessions a week, 3 steady-state of 40-60 mins per week and 1 harder one, plus 3-4 runs per week (I'd rather not cut this if I can; I enjoy it) and a circuit session or two. I've only really started properly thinking about my training since covid started, and although my aerobic system has made huge gains, my legs start to get sore more easily (well before my lungs even feel like they're working hard) and my sprinting ability has taken a gigantic hit. My 2k-paced stuff has gotten a split or two faster but my max watts have fallen from 570W to just 450W. Before covid I did weight training once or twice per week but now that's not an option. I know max watts isn't the be-all and end-all but it's now starting to interfere with the rest of my training as I can't fully push my aerobic system in the harder stuff and my steady-state stroke rates are now creeping up to 20 rather than 18.

How do I reverse or at least stop this loss? High-power sprint sessions? More bodyweight exercises? Hard rate-capped pieces? Really need a solution because at this rate by the time I can row on the water my max watts will be the same as my 2k...

Unless you were power lifting before I am surprised that your leg strength has dropped with the training you have done. Someone more technical may be along soon.
On the subject I found this interesting article. https://buff.ly/2SY8Az2

(1-legged) squats and lunges should work well. My favorite power workout on the rower is 1'/3'R at R20, every rep at max.

How do I reverse or at least stop this loss? High-power sprint sessions? More bodyweight exercises? Hard rate-capped pieces?

It's not necessarily a loss. 450W for 2k is very unlikely at 65kg, but 350W would be good at that weight (5.4 W/kg, 2k 6:40).

Assuming you are male, your relatively slow 2k time would seem to indicate that you have problems with both style and endurance; although your 30' time seems to contradict this.

So if your main aim is 2k, you could target for now a 320W 2k, to be rowed at 32-34 and with a 9.5-10 W stroke. This will require mileage between 18/160W and 23/210W. The Wolverine L4 tables might help, after a new 2k test.

jamesg wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 4:07 am

How do I reverse or at least stop this loss? High-power sprint sessions? More bodyweight exercises? Hard rate-capped pieces?

It's not necessarily a loss. 450W for 2k is very unlikely at 65kg, but 350W would be good at that weight (5.4 W/kg, 2k 6:40).

Assuming you are male, your relatively slow 2k time would seem to indicate that you have problems with both style and endurance; although your 30' time seems to contradict this.

So if your main aim is 2k, you could target for now a 320W 2k, to be rowed at 32-34 and with a 9.5-10 W stroke. This will require mileage between 18/160W and 23/210W. The Wolverine L4 tables might help, after a new 2k test.

I'm definitely not aiming for 450W over 2k, but I'm not sure whether it's realistic to have a 2k in the 300-350W range with a max of 450. The 2k test is a bit old, at the time I set the 30r20 I was probably 1-2 splits faster. I've pretty much been doing what you're suggesting, with most of my miles around 2:05 (180W) and 19-20spm (this gets me to around 65-70% HRR). The problem is in most of my training that my legs are fatiguing well before my lungs and I worry this is holding me back in my higher-intensity sessions and even starting to push my stroke rate up towards 20 or even 21 during steady-state.

MoonPlanet wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 4:59 am

jamesg wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 4:07 am

How do I reverse or at least stop this loss? High-power sprint sessions? More bodyweight exercises? Hard rate-capped pieces?

It's not necessarily a loss. 450W for 2k is very unlikely at 65kg, but 350W would be good at that weight (5.4 W/kg, 2k 6:40).

Assuming you are male, your relatively slow 2k time would seem to indicate that you have problems with both style and endurance; although your 30' time seems to contradict this.

So if your main aim is 2k, you could target for now a 320W 2k, to be rowed at 32-34 and with a 9.5-10 W stroke. This will require mileage between 18/160W and 23/210W. The Wolverine L4 tables might help, after a new 2k test.

I'm definitely not aiming for 450W over 2k, but I'm not sure whether it's realistic to have a 2k in the 300-350W range with a max of 450. The 2k test is a bit old, at the time I set the 30r20 I was probably 1-2 splits faster. I've pretty much been doing what you're suggesting, with most of my miles around 2:05 (180W) and 19-20spm (this gets me to around 65-70% HRR). The problem is in most of my training that my legs are fatiguing well before my lungs and I worry this is holding me back in my higher-intensity sessions and even starting to push my stroke rate up towards 20 or even 21 during steady-state.

IIUC, you are training 7-10 sessions per week. Is this a lot for you? Usually I'm a bit skeptical if someone self-diagnoses as over-trained, but if these 7-10 sessions are a big ramp up, then perhaps you are outpacing your ability to recover. Are your nutrition and sleep habits sufficient to support this volume of training?

I'm no nutritionist, but if you are not replenishing your glycogen sufficiently between workouts, then tired legs would be exactly what I'd expect.

The problem is in most of my training that my legs are fatiguing well before my lungs

Style may be able to help you here, by offering various combinations of handle force and length. Drag factor and even foot height can also cause unnecessary problems, especially at the high ratings used in a 2k.

Maybe you can find something useful here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dzPz0tD5I

Or maybe just wait a year or two and a few more kg (I'm against hunger), nothing happens instantly, and you're certainly very capable.

Yeah i agree that it seems unlikely you should have lost this much peak power just by training the aerobic system more. It's true that you have to pick and choose to some extent--meaning any effort you allocate one place (e.g. aerobic) is by definition effort you can't allocate elsewhere (e.g. pushing peak power)--but the fact is, all of this training will cause overlapping cellular signalling and you CAN actually improve many things at once up until the point where you get closer to your genetic potential. At that point you really do have to pick and choose (and you cant have your cake and eat it too), but i'd be super surprised if you were anywhere close to that.

Therefore, before worrying too much and adding on additional, focused training, I would take a look at rest and recovery. How many weeks have you been doing this for, and have you taken a rest week any time recently? Neuromuscular power can be one of the first things that goes when you are overreached and need a rest.

This isn't "overtraining" btw. You would not be overtrained. You just a reduced training load for a few days to give the body time to adapt and get stronger from the stimulus you've been giving it. A lot of people do three weeks at a time of load (building load progressively), then one week at a much lower load, to let your body absorb. Then you load again.

Additional things to keep in mind:
1. You might feel crappy the first hard day after a rest week, but the next hard day, you should be stronger than ever.
2. You might not need a whole week of rest / easy training before your'e ready to rock again. Take more, take less, as long as you need. My favorite way of testing whether i'm ready to go again is--you guessed it--a sprint day. If the neuromuscular power is high, i know i'm recovered and ready to ride.

dknickerbocker wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 12:40 pm

This isn't "overtraining" btw. You would not be overtrained. You just a reduced training load for a few days to give the body time to adapt and get stronger from the stimulus you've been giving it. A lot of people do three weeks at a time of load (building load progressively), then one week at a much lower load, to let your body absorb. Then you load again.

I found your post very interesting. Would this also apply to someone like myself who works only LSD, (no intervals, HIIT, PB's, TT's, etc...) who's main objective is to consistently train 5 to 6 days a week, without being subject to injuries?

Thanks everyone for the replies. Yes, I've had longer (4-5 days or so) periods without erging every month or so, I'm eating plenty (I'd estimate 3-3.5k per day, almost all from actual proper food rather than processed snacks) and sleeping better than I used to (generally 7.5-9 hrs/day). In terms of the volume, this is a little more than I was doing before covid if you include OTW stuff, but I've largely kept it fixed for the last 2.5 months. The peak power decline wasn't a sudden thing - it happened very gradually. Will try some single-leg squat stuff and see if that helps.

mict450 wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 1:45 pm

dknickerbocker wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 12:40 pm

This isn't "overtraining" btw. You would not be overtrained. You just a reduced training load for a few days to give the body time to adapt and get stronger from the stimulus you've been giving it. A lot of people do three weeks at a time of load (building load progressively), then one week at a much lower load, to let your body absorb. Then you load again.

I found your post very interesting. Would this also apply to someone like myself who works only LSD, (no intervals, HIIT, PB's, TT's, etc...) who's main objective is to consistently train 5 to 6 days a week, without being subject to injuries?

So, i'm not entirely sure unfortunately but my guess would be that you could get away deloading less often, if you're just training to be consistent, get activity, get your heart rate up, etc., but not truly bury yourself. I bet you could do it less often and only as needed rather than being strict. Just make sure you listen to your body (easier said than done, I know )

Thanks, most helpful!

Tony Cook wrote: ↑

June 28th, 2020, 7:31 pm

Unless you were power lifting before I am surprised that your leg strength has dropped with the training you have done. Someone more technical may be along soon.
On the subject I found this interesting article. https://buff.ly/2SY8Az2

About this article. The person clearly knows what she's talking about but I don't think it actually makes the case. It's not clear what data she's looking at, and she doesn't explain how she comes to a view on causality. I'm making assumptions here (again, because I don't know what data she's looking at) but I think all you can say is that 1rm strength is correlated with mid-duration power, but we don't know which direction the causality runs. It could just be overall strength of the glycolitic system (which weight lifting improves) rather than peak power as the driver.

I've used this example before, but think about an elite track cycling sprinter. They have immense peak power but if they trained to get faster at, say 5 or 6 minutes, their peak power would probably go down, not up, as they improve at the longer duration. So at the very least I think it has to be more complicated than just, "peak power is the limiter," even once a rower is well-conditioned aerobically.

To the oP, sorry, I assumed that the decline had happened quickly. Agree with you it shouldn't be because of overreaching/ underrecovery in that case.

That said, take heart, because i bet it'll come back quickly once you start doing higher resistance lifts and some sprints. IIRC data from the powerlifting context shows that concurrent training (strength and conditioning) works and that both CAN be improved simultaneously.

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 12:17 am

(1-legged) squats and lunges should work well. My favorite power workout on the rower is 1'/3'R at R20, every rep at max.

Curious....what drag factor would you use for a workout like this?

mict450 wrote: ↑

July 1st, 2020, 2:15 am

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

June 29th, 2020, 12:17 am

(1-legged) squats and lunges should work well. My favorite power workout on the rower is 1'/3'R at R20, every rep at max.

Curious....what drag factor would you use for a workout like this?

I use max drag, but there's (almost) no difference between 200 and 150 as the fan has a lot of time to slow down. I expect this would also work with "normal" drag around 120 It's my substitution for deadlifts as I don't train with weights.