Doing something wrong, or impatient?

[pagomichaelh]

Background:
5'7", 148#, 66 yo, intending to get on the water on a 'real' boat. A bit of a ringer, because for 35 years, going to work in the morning or coming home at night meant a 2 km row each way in a heavy pulling boat (no slides per se), rain or shine, gale or calm. No one had a watch on me, but I had to be in to open the store on time.

Swallowed the anchor, and moved on land six years ago.

Started working on a gym's C2 (it's not in good shape, but it works) in November. Before I forget, Southern Hemisphere summer in the tropics, and the gym doesn't have a/c or fans. Bloody hot. 1.5 liters of water/session.

After a 10 minute warm-up, I'll go for a Wolverine-ish level 4 workout 3-4 days/week like this, 1.5 min rest between sets. Once a month, I'm dropping the target rate by 5 seconds (ie, 16s/m, 2:49 rate will go to 2:45 in April)

1) 3'/2'/1' @ 16/18/20 02:49 02:43 02:38
2) 2'/2'/2' @ 18/20/18 02:43 02:38 02:43
3) 3'/2'/1' @ 18/20/22 02:43 02:38 02:32
4) 2'/2'/2' @ 20/22/20 02:38 02:32 02:38
5) 3'/2'/1' @ 20/22/24 02:38 02:32 02:26
6) 2'/2'/2' @ 22/24/22 02:32 02:26 02:32
7) 3'/2'/1' @ 22/24/26 02:32 02:26 02:21
8) 2'/2'/2' @ 24/26/24 02:26 02:21 02:26
9) 3'/2'/1' @ 24/26/28 02:26 02:21 02:15

Well, the last set gets missed as often as not, as I can't catch my breath anymore. All of the other sets, I usually exceed target. I'll do either 50x2 push ups or 20x1 pull ups after, because I don't think my arms get that good of a work out.

When I do sprints (500m intervals) every couple of weeks, I simply can't get a drive rate of less than a 1:50 rate even once, and dying with a 2:05 500.

Should I worry about the lack of speed, or keep plugging on aerobic conditioning, with the hope the speed will pick up?

I have a dickie knee, so I'm not keen on squats with free weights. Maybe leg presses on a machine to build greater strength?

Or just too ambitious for right now?

[hjs]

The L4 workouts are based on a real 2k time. Just only doing made up sessions will not tell you much. Ofcourse you are training, but for race speed you also need race rates. Speed will not come out of nowhere, all of a sudden.
I think you better start doing L1 sessions, maybe once every two weeks, with also a L2 session, the other one. And take it from there.

Re strenght, thats seldom the limiting factor for 2k and beyond, don,t worry about that.

[MPx]

Despite your long history with rowing, IMO your physique and age will naturally limit what can be achieved - although a glance over at what Rod Chin is currently doing at age 62 and similar stature may provide inspiration! Being able to do the sessions you do - ie regularly over an hour of actual erging is mighty impressive to me but to an extent it is training you to erg slowly. Your -5 secs per month is very ambitious long term, but your starting point is slow if you consider you are at least partly trained already? If you are closer to starting from scratch then the pace is fine and simply doing as Henry says on some more sprints will pay dividends and you will quickly improve. If you stick with the WP then maybe worth testing your 2k now so that the levels are set appropriately? Stick with it....

[mitchel674]

I would question your form. Given your level of fitness, I would think you would be pulling with more wattage. Any chance you could post a short video of you rowing? What does your force curve look like on the PM?

[pagomichaelh]

... but your starting point is slow if you consider you are at least partly trained already? If you are closer to starting from scratch then the pace is fine and simply doing as Henry says on some more sprints will pay dividends and you will quickly improve. If you stick with the WP then maybe worth testing your 2k now so that the levels are set appropriately? Stick with it....

I have a marked tendency to let my 20 year old mind overwhelm my 66 year old body and get stress injuries, so I'm trying to force myself to a bit lower rate.

What's bothering me is that I can't even break the 1:50 rate for even a few strokes at a time, and, even then, I really have to concentrate and "get mad" at the handle to explode into it.

I'll kick up my target rate a couple of notches on Monday.

I get a nice smooth 'haystack' on the monitor at a 30+spm rate, so my form can't be that bad, it just peaks about 1/2 way up the scale (PM3 on the gym machine, I'd doubt that the software has ever been upgraded).

I do an interval session once every couple of weeks (500x8, 500 'rest' between sets), average about 2:15.

[Allan Olesen]

1) 3'/2'/1' @ 16/18/20 02:49 02:43 02:38

That is a quite weak stroke. Approx. 4.4 wattminutes per stroke. With your history, I would have expected twice of that.

To hold a 1:50 pace, you would need 60 of those strokes per minute. That is is not feasible. So if you want more speed, you need a stronger stroke.

I noticed two things in your post:

• Your boat had no slides. Does that mean that you couldn't use your legs, but relied solely on arms and core?

• You say that you train your arms after a row session because the rowing didn't do much to them. But what about your legs?

My guess is that you need to learn to use your legs.

[pagomichaelh]

1) 3'/2'/1' @ 16/18/20 02:49 02:43 02:38

That is a quite weak stroke. Approx. 4.4 wattminutes per stroke. With your history, I would have expected twice of that.

To hold a 1:50 pace, you would need 60 of those strokes per minute. That is is not feasible. So if you want more speed, you need a stronger stroke.

I noticed two things in your post:

• Your boat had no slides. Does that mean that you couldn't use your legs, but relied solely on arms and core?

• You say that you train your arms after a row session because the rowing didn't do much to them. But what about your legs?

My guess is that you need to learn to use your legs.

In no particular order:

I don't feel like I'm under a load until the fifth set. When the stroke rate hits 24 (2:26 rate) is when I start to feel that I'm working. But when I'm at the 8th set, I'm starting to blow up.

When I built that boat, instead of having a normal seat (running athwartships), I made it so the seat ran fore and aft with a foot brace underneath the seat. I could manually slide like that when I needed to (bad weather). 2.5 mm alloy skins, wood cuddy in the bows, 3 meters long - NOT a lightweight shell!

I agree; I think I need more leg power/speed. More intervals? Leg only at max damper? Something else?

I'm the newbie, you guys are the experts!

[jamesg]

sprints (500m intervals) ... no 1:50 even once, dying with a 2:05
I think I need more leg power/speed. More intervals? Leg only at max damper? Something else?

You're doing well, almost an hour of Wolverine L4s at 100W average is a lot of work. 50x2 push-ups does not indicate any lack of strength.

However your Power/Rating ratio, about 4.4 as noted above, is not high. This is usually a technique problem due to incorrect recovery sequence leading to a weak catch posture and a short stroke.

On slides the recovery sequence is: first hands away, then swing, then slide. This puts our weight forward and on the feet, but with the knee angle open so that the legs can act immediately at full force.

My guess is you can easily reach a net stroke length of 100cm and an average force of 35kg. Ergdata would show you both. These two numbers indicate a stroke work of 35 kgm, so over 110W (pace 2:27) at rate 20.

Low drag and low feet can both help.

[jackarabit]

Your 9x6 on 1.5 workout is a test to failure! Formally it mimics Wolverine L4 but your assumption that you should be able to complete the final 6’ block is nonsense. The highest pace/rate combination for L4 6’ training blocks that I’ve seen in my collection of Wolverine literature, canonical and apocryphal, is the 148^, a 1/2/3 @ 24/26/24. The 28spm gasper at the end of your final 3/2/1 is your own creation. As stated elsewhere, the range of pace/power is pretty wide from block 1 to block 9. I won’t even speculate where the frequent rest periods fit in what is customarily treated as a continuous workout of duration 40-60’.

Best do a 2k and plug pace into the L4 pace and rate prescription tables. (Example in photo is for my personal use the last couple yrs.). If you want to sprint and rest and go again, get rid of the rate change complications and do 6x500 on 2’ or 8x500 on 3:30.

[pagomichaelh]

Your 9x6 on 1.5 workout is a test to failure! Formally it mimics Wolverine L4 but your assumption that you should be able to complete the final 6’ block is nonsense. The highest pace/rate combination for L4 6’ training blocks that I’ve seen in my collection of Wolverine literature, canonical and apocryphal, is the 148^, a 1/2/3 @ 24/26/24. The 28spm gasper at the end of your final 3/2/1 is your own creation. As stated elsewhere, the range of pace/power is pretty wide from block 1 to block 9. I won’t even speculate where the frequent rest periods fit in what is customarily treated as a continuous workout of duration 40-60’.

Best do a 2k and plug pace into the L4 pace and rate prescription tables. (Example in photo is for my personal use the last couple yrs.). If you want to sprint and rest and go again, get rid of the rate change complications and do 6x500 on 2’ or 8x500 on 3:30.

I had wondered about the resting. The .pdf I looked at said rest at a 3:1 rate, and since they had the sets listed on separate lines, I was supposed to rest between the 6'. I've been getting a drink of water and stretching out (heat index today 106*F).

Would you mind explaining the photo more? I'm lost understanding what's what. I understand the typed list with the 500m rate/stroke, but not the other lists

thanks,
Michael

[Longleggedfly]

I have a hunch it’s your form. I’m a 48 year old woman, who has been rowing for 3 years and typically row 1k at around 3.45 and 2k at around 7.55. This is very fast for a woman my age, but it’s about the same speed as the men in their 60s at my club. You should probably be faster than me.

I find the rowing stroke to be an incredibly complicated movement. I had to do a lot of work on my flexibility to get my form halfway decent. If you can’t get your shoulders in front of your hips when you bring your body over two straight legs, rowing is very difficult.
After six months of regular stretching, I got more range of motion in my ankles and hamstrings and my splits began to improve. I have made tiny increases in speed by working on things like:

Keeping shins vertical at the catch
Using my core to connect the handle to the seat (handle and seat move at same time)
Not rushing the recovery
Keep hips back as arms go forward
Do not let your butt wink under you on the recovery, catch and leg drive. Keep your hips behind your shoulders.
Extend shoulder mantle and make arms long on recovery.
No yanking with arms. The arms complete the drive with just momentum on higher stroke rates.
Keep wrists flat. Imagine arms are simply ropes and hands are just hooks.
Pin lat muscles onto core during drive
Contract glutes on drive
Contract abdominals on drive
Engage quads at end of drive
Remain connected to foot stretchers at all times
Watch out for too much layback (do not roll off sit bones onto back pockets)
Breath at start and end of stroke.

Once I fixed my form, I was able to row more efficiently. I got a lot faster with a lot less effort.

[jackarabit]

Michael H. writes:

Would you mind explaining the photo more? I'm lost understanding what's what. I understand the typed list with the 500m rate/stroke, but not the other lists

The laminated cards are from a set, each one containing the information about one 6’ or 10’ training block that I find useful to remind me when to make the rate and pace changes. I set the workout as a series of intervals (6 or 10’)/no rest. So the first line across is clock countdown from 6’ for 2’/2’/2’ (rate changes at 4’ and 2’). A 3’/2’/1‘ would read 6/3/1. Second line is rate progression. Third line is cumulative strokes at each rate change (ex.: 3x24/2x26/1x28 as in your ninth block would be 72/72+54/72+54+28 or 72/126/154. This notation makes it simple for me to track strokes per segment without counting strokes per minute. I have never seen a 6’ “154” in the L4 tables. If it existed, it would be harder to execute in terms of average stroke rate than the 148 (24.7 spm average for the 148, 25.7 spm for the 154).

It’s my system and my personal deck of navigational aids. Counting strokes and watching current pace seems to work fine for most people so you likely don’t need it. As stated before, you do need a reference pace from a completed 2k to determine the rate/pace combinations chosen for your current training by your namesake, Michael Caviston.

Your pulling boat with the longitudinal “thwart” is very interesting. Like some others, I’m convinced upper body strength is not your problem. A video might sort the question of leg contribution to your erg stroke. Dory hauling it ain’t!

[Dangerscouse]

I have a hunch it’s your form. I’m a 48 year old woman, who has been rowing for 3 years and typically row 1k at around 3.45 and 2k at around 7.55. This is very fast for a woman my age, but it’s about the same speed as the men in their 60s at my club. You should probably be faster than me.

I find the rowing stroke to be an incredibly complicated movement. I had to do a lot of work on my flexibility to get my form halfway decent. If you can’t get your shoulders in front of your hips when you bring your body over two straight legs, rowing is very difficult.
After six months of regular stretching, I got more range of motion in my ankles and hamstrings and my splits began to improve. I have made tiny increases in speed by working on things like:

Keeping shins vertical at the catch
Using my core to connect the handle to the seat (handle and seat move at same time)
Not rushing the recovery
Keep hips back as arms go forward
Do not let your butt wink under you on the recovery, catch and leg drive. Keep your hips behind your shoulders.
Extend shoulder mantle and make arms long on recovery.
No yanking with arms. The arms complete the drive with just momentum on higher stroke rates.
Keep wrists flat. Imagine arms are simply ropes and hands are just hooks.
Pin lat muscles onto core during drive
Contract glutes on drive
Contract abdominals on drive
Engage quads at end of drive
Remain connected to foot stretchers at all times
Watch out for too much layback (do not roll off sit bones onto back pockets)
Breath at start and end of stroke.

Once I fixed my form, I was able to row more efficiently. I got a lot faster with a lot less effort.

Great advice and you're right, they are fast times.

I have said this many times but for a seemingly simple exercise it's surprisingly technical and all too easy to do it wrong and leak power

[pagomichaelh]

I have a hunch it’s your form. ...
Keep hips back as arms go forward
...

I think this is it. I did 8x500 yesterday, and when I concentrated on keeping heels down, shoulders forward, it felt like I was getting a lot more power in my stroke for less energy expended.

Thanks to all for your suggestions. I'll be changing how I'm doing my L4's, and see what happens in two weeks (when I schedule for my next 8x500).

Hopefully, they'll get the shells in the water next month and I'll be ready.

best,
Michael

[Longleggedfly]

Happy to help