Concept2 Forum

I've bought a concept2 and I'm doing 2k's. I'm noticing I don't have much power out of the drive, and my force curve is quite flat and long, and I'm pretty sure my Average Force is low. Here is my numbers from the latest 2k:

Stroke Count: 253
Drive Length: 1.27m
Average Force: 44lbs
Drag Force: 110
Drive Speed: 1.41ms
Peak Force: 62lbs

10:46.4
2:41.6 ave/500m

Any suggestions and how to get more power out? Or am I simply just not strong enough yet. Been rowing for only 2 weeks. Totally new to this.

Quick tangent question: How do I protect my back while doing this exercise?

dontmindsarno wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 4:42 am

I've bought a concept2 and I'm doing 2k's. I'm noticing I don't have much power out of the drive, and my force curve is quite flat and long, and I'm pretty sure my Average Force is low. Here is my numbers from the latest 2k:

Stroke Count: 253
Drive Length: 1.27m
Average Force: 44lbs
Drag Force: 110
Drive Speed: 1.41ms
Peak Force: 62lbs

10:46.4
2:41.6 ave/500m

Any suggestions and how to get more power out? Or am I simply just not strong enough yet. Been rowing for only 2 weeks. Totally new to this.

Quick tangent question: How do I protect my back while doing this exercise?

Most force should come from the legs (about 60%) and back (30%), only about 10% from the arms. As your force curve is flat I guess you're no pushing enough with the legs.
I would recommend to work on proper technique first, you can find good videos on the C2 homepage. Pace isn't important at the very start, you'll get faster with good technique and more experience, give your body some time to adapt.
You can also film yourself, upload the vid to youtube and post a link here, the experienced rowers can give you good advice for sure.

An easy way to check your stroke quality is the SPI (stroke power index), which is watts / SPM (strokes per minute). For example, if you row with 100W at 20 SPM your SPI is 5 (low). Male HWT rower are normally a good bit higher (around 8-12 depending on fitness and strength), and elite rower can do SPIs >17 for 30min.

Try to increese the distance you do, try to work up to 30 min. Keep the rate low. Think 20/22 per min. Your base fitness is really not good, looking at the details at this point is not usefull.
And next to rowing, any kind of exercise, at this point, will help you, even walking.

Have patience, it should be possible to build on this and be a lot fitter over a year orso.

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 5:27 am

An easy way to check your stroke quality is the SPI (stroke power index), which is watts / SPM (strokes per minute). For example, if you row with 100W at 20 SPM your SPI is 5 (low). Male HWT rower are normally a good bit higher (around 8-12 depending on fitness and strength), and elite rower can do SPIs >17 for 30min.

Any anecdotes on what SPI would be considered 'good' for an hour's steady state work ?

hjs wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 5:41 am

Try to increese the distance you do, try to work up to 30 min. Keep the rate low. Think 20/22 per min. Your base fitness is really not good, looking at the details at this point is not usefull.
And next to rowing, any kind of exercise, at this point, will help you, even walking.

Have patience, it should be possible to build on this and be a lot fitter over a year orso.

This is perfect advice.

Get yourself a heart rate monitor to make sure you're staying in UT2 zone. As Henry says, work up to being able to row a 30 min piece and repeat to build a decent aerobic base. Then give it a few months and most likely you'll have knocked spots off that 2k time.

uk gearmuncher wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:31 am

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 5:27 am

An easy way to check your stroke quality is the SPI (stroke power index), which is watts / SPM (strokes per minute). For example, if you row with 100W at 20 SPM your SPI is 5 (low). Male HWT rower are normally a good bit higher (around 8-12 depending on fitness and strength), and elite rower can do SPIs >17 for 30min.

Any anecdotes on what SPI would be considered 'good' for an hour's steady state work ?

For us hobby ergers I think an SPI >10 can be considered good for a hard SS 60' workout (UT1/AT intensity), strong and fit ergers like Keith or Stu will be >12.
I recently saw an elite rower (Hamish Bond?) rowing a 60R20 17.200m, so SPI 15, at AHR of only around 140
What I forgot to write in my first post is that I was talking about training at low SPM like a 30R20, no human can row 30min at SPI 17 and 30 SPM.

uk gearmuncher wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:31 am

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 5:27 am

An easy way to check your stroke quality is the SPI (stroke power index), which is watts / SPM (strokes per minute). For example, if you row with 100W at 20 SPM your SPI is 5 (low). Male HWT rower are normally a good bit higher (around 8-12 depending on fitness and strength), and elite rower can do SPIs >17 for 30min.

Any anecdotes on what SPI would be considered 'good' for an hour's steady state work ?

There is no one answer - depends on technique, fitness, physiology, size and stroke rate amongst other things. If you are really fit you can deliver more strokes per minute but each one may be fewer watts - lightweights often have higher srs than a big strong heavy weight. Fitness will determine how many strokes and for how long you can maintain them. Technique will deliver the power more efficiently.
There are strong super fit guys that can maintain 10 watts spi at 20srm to 30 srm for an hour but more normally for long and steady 6-10w is doable.
For short sprinty stuff 12 to 15 is possible (the monsters can do more)

for me you are getting a bit ahead of yourself in that you are totally new to all this and just need to concentrate on getting the basics right - don't worry too much about all the numbers - they will get better as you do. Aiming for 30' at long slowish rates as suggested is a good place to start
There is a huge amount of useful information on the Forum
such as: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257&hilit=newbie

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:49 am

<>

I recently saw an elite rower (Hamish Bond?) rowing a 60R20 17.200m, so SPI 15, at AHR of only around 140
<>

This? https://www.instagram.com/p/B8IeoX_AqLB/

I always thought that Eric Murray provided the power and Bond the finesse and boatcraft, but this is preposterous. He's also a top class cyclist and judging by his instagram page squats a fair bit too.

max_ratcliffe wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 7:12 am

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:49 am

<>

I recently saw an elite rower (Hamish Bond?) rowing a 60R20 17.200m, so SPI 15, at AHR of only around 140
<>

This? https://www.instagram.com/p/B8IeoX_AqLB/

I always thought that Eric Murray provided the power and Bond the finesse and boatcraft, but this is preposterous. He's also a top class cyclist and judging by his instagram page squats a fair bit too.

This is an absolutely outrageous workout. One could train for a lifetime and not get close to this score. I was made aware of it by watching one of Cameron Buchan's videos. Cameron also did a 9000 meter 30r20 recently, which is just.....

I personally find SPI to be a useful index, but it depends on what one is trying to do. For strength training, maximizing SPI is a good goal. That usually involves low SPM and low pace. But if one is trying establish best times, maximizing SPI won't work. Generally SPM will go up and SPI will go down. Of course all of this is age and fitness dependent. Talking SPI for a 30 yr old is vastly different than for a 60 yr old. Let's say one does 15K in one hr. That is 2:00 pace, 202 Watts. At 28 SPM, that is SPI of 7.2. 15K is the 90 percentile mark for >= 60.

max_ratcliffe wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 7:12 am

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:49 am

<>

I recently saw an elite rower (Hamish Bond?) rowing a 60R20 17.200m, so SPI 15, at AHR of only around 140
<>

This? https://www.instagram.com/p/B8IeoX_AqLB/

I always thought that Eric Murray provided the power and Bond the finesse and boatcraft, but this is preposterous. He's also a top class cyclist and judging by his instagram page squats a fair bit too.

Also have seen, don,t know which of the two, a 4x2k rest 5, sub 6 al 4 that was a few years back already.

Current Wr 6k is also sub 1.30 already. One of the Sinkovics brothers.

Cyclingman1 wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 7:26 am

I personally find SPI to be a useful index, but it depends on what one is trying to do. For strength training, maximizing SPI is a good goal. That usually involves low SPM and low pace. But if one is trying establish best times, maximizing SPI won't work. Generally SPM will go up and SPI will go down. Of course all of this is age and fitness dependent. Talking SPI for a 30 yr old is vastly different than for a 60 yr old. Let's say one does 15K in one hr. That is 2:00 pace, 202 Watts. At 28 SPM, that is SPI of 7.2. 15K is the 90 percentile mark for >= 60.

I find it odd since if the basic calculation of power output already involves stroke rate (and applied force), so I'm not sure of the sense of using it again by dividing the power by it as you've then used it twice.

Power is power and surely it's on that basis we should be discussing comparisons. Just as an aside, I don't row as often as many of you but I find it curious that it seems that people are still prioritizing other metrics such as heart rate or stroke rate over power output in this day and age.

lindsayh wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:58 am

For me you are getting a bit ahead of yourself in that you are totally new to all this and just need to concentrate on getting the basics right - don't worry too much about all the numbers - they will get better as you do. Aiming for 30' at long slowish rates as suggested is a good place to start
There is a huge amount of useful information on the Forum
such as: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257&hilit=newbie

Thanks but whilst I'm new on here I'm not a complete newbie per se' as I've been on the rower on and off for years. I'm a sports scientist by trade though and, at the end of the day, the numbers are pretty much everything in my view. This all said, I do erg'ing as cross training from my current competitive cycling and my current easy rowing hour is typically 18spm at 163w = SPI of 9. I'm in the curious position of being a former swimmer so i can't push the pace (or the damper !) too much as having my shoulders start to beef up ruins my cycling aerodynamics .

uk gearmuncher wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 7:34 am

lindsayh wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 6:58 am

For me you are getting a bit ahead of yourself in that you are totally new to all this and just need to concentrate on getting the basics right - don't worry too much about all the numbers - they will get better as you do. Aiming for 30' at long slowish rates as suggested is a good place to start
There is a huge amount of useful information on the Forum
such as: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=185257&hilit=newbie

Thanks but whilst I'm new on here I'm not a newbie per se'. I'm a sports scientist by trade and, at the end of the day, the numbers are pretty much everything in my view.

Lindsay's comment was for the OP, I think.

max_ratcliffe wrote: ↑

February 19th, 2020, 7:39 am

Lindsay's comment was for the OP, I think.

I hope so as I've just opened up a new box of hankies now.