Progressing to faster 2k

[jonwilko]

Hi
I am getting back into erg after a 10 year lay off. I was a cycle time triallist but had knee injury and used erg as it didn't affect my knee whilst recovering.

I am 50, 6 2" and 90kg.

In the past did some reasonable times, 17:53 5k, 37.28 10K and 8070m 30 mins. But a long time ago!

My 2k was never great at 6:54 and after 60000 m this season in 2 months I want to start progressing the 2k with some intervals.

I am pretty fit all round and now cycling again, I don't do any weights or anything else.
Last week:
I did 4 x 500 m at 6:40 pace (1:40) ...the first 3 were fine but the last one I faded and only managed 1:41.7.
My HR was up to 98% max in each one. I have to say it hurt.
My question is, how to progress. I was going to do one set of 4x 500 per week. I figured a month of these should make me ready to move it up.
Should I decrease the split time or do more metres at that intensity?
My target is a 6:40 by Feb 1 2020.
If I can do that I hope to hit 6:30 by Spring. I would like to enter some age group competitions as I need that to drive me. I have watched some YouTube stuff regarding technique, such as Cam Nicholas, which was great.
I aim to do one medium row 10k/30 min and a fast 5k a week as well. I do 150k on the bike too so guess I could sacrifice some of those if it would be beneficial.
Thanks for any tips or encouragement.

[Citroen]

My HR was up to 98% max in each one. ...

How do you know? Have you measured it or used a useless formula like 220-age?

[jonwilko]

Hi
I use a Garmin heart rate monitor from my bike. My max HR was tested on a ramp test at Bath Uni in 2014. Once a year I do a retest which involves a cycle turbo simulation of the ramp test. It is not 100,% accurate but close enough. From time trialling I have a good idea of exertion and have been using HR and power data on my bike for 10 years. What is this 220 minus age thing, not heard of that?
Thanks for your post.

[Dangerscouse]

Hi Jon, if I was you I'd play around with longer intervals as I find 500s aren't much use for predicting a 2k as they end too quickly.

Do more 4 x 750 r2 or 3; 4 x 1k r5, and some 3 x 1250 and 3 x 1500, both on r5. They will test your boundaries a lot more than 500s.

5k at a hard pace is also really useful as it makes a 2k seem relatively short. No less uncomfortable though

[jonwilko]

Thanks that's really helpful. I presume r means rest in minutes?
I think I am going to have to go to 1:43 splits for 750m or longer, and then try and speed up when they get comfortable
Some impressive times/distances there.

[Anth_F]

4x500m is not near enough for seriously training for a 2k TT!!

8x500 on no more than 2min rest works, or if you're feeling really brave try 1min rest.

[max_ratcliffe]

4x500m is not near enough for seriously training for a 2k TT!!

8x500 on no more than 2min rest works, or if you're feeling really brave try 1min rest.

Yeah, 8x500 is much more the standard as well as the other sessions mentioned.

As regards rest intervals, i think it depends on what effects you're after, and what pace. Often 8x500r1 is done at 2k pace, while 8x500r3'30" is done at 2k-3 (i.e. each 500m interval is 3s faster than your 500m split for 2k).

[jamesg]

My target is a 6:40 by Feb 1 2020

Having a clear target like that lets you use the Gold standard method.

6:40 is 1:40 pace, 350 Watts. You'll likely need to pull that between 28 and 32 spm; so a stroke worth between 11 and 12.5 Watt minutes (=Watts/Rating).

More modern equivalents to the old Interactives can be see here:
https://www.britishrowing.org/indoor-ro ... ing-plans/

[lindsayh]

Hi I use a Garmin heart rate monitor from my bike. My max HR was tested on a ramp test at Bath Uni in 2014. Once a year I do a retest which involves a cycle turbo simulation of the ramp test. It is not 100,% accurate but close enough. From time trialling I have a good idea of exertion and have been using HR and power data on my bike for 10 years. What is this 220 minus age thing, not heard of that? Thanks for your post.

Jon many people rely on a formula of 220-age to determine MHR - it was part off a scientific paper that was misinterpreted and then repeated ad infinitum but is in no way an accurate way of measuring and has been completely discredited. It still has widespread currency unfortunately. MHR is a little different between bike/erg/treadmill but a test to max like that you describe will be pretty close.
I am surprised though that you got that close to MHR in 500 meters x4 as the active interval for a VO2 max and the like is typically 4' say by 6/7 with 1'R. Are you using a chest strap with the garmin? If you are even just reasonably fit I would think it impossible to get that close to MHR with those short intervals. Even a full on 2k TT will not be likely to get to max.

My question is, how to progress. I was going to do one set of 4x 500 per week. I figured a month of these should make me ready to move it up.
Should I decrease the split time or do more metres at that intensity?

As suggested above 4x 500 is not really enough to improve your 2k significantly. The pete Plan which is a widely used 2k training program uses 8x 500m/3:30R as one of its hard interval pieces aiming to be around 2k -3" pace. You could do 8x with say 2'R at around 2k goal pace. The PP also uses 4x 1k/5'R at around 2k pace as one of the hard intervals. It also uses long steady pieces (which are essential) and some hard long intervals such as 4x 2k/5'R at around 5k pace. The ideas are more important than the actual numbers though.
https://thepeteplan.wordpress.com/

[Dangerscouse]

Thanks that's really helpful. I presume r means rest in minutes?
I think I am going to have to go to 1:43 splits for 750m or longer, and then try and speed up when they get comfortable
Some impressive times/distances there.

Yeah, r is rest. Start at 1:43 or maybe 1:44 and see how it feels. You want to be hitting it hard, but not too hard that you fail. Getting a gauge for your potential can be difficult but it's important as you need to win the mental battles early on too so you bolster your confidence. Your mindset can make or break your efforts

[jonwilko]

Okay thanks. Consensus seems to be longer intervals rather than higher pace.

[lancecampeau]

Often 8x500r1 is done at 2k pace, while 8x500r3'30" is done at 2k-3 (i.e. each 500m interval is 3s faster than your 500m split for 2k).

Crap... That sounds worse then a 1K TT

[jonwilko]

4x500m is not near enough for seriously training for a 2k TT!!

8x500 on no more than 2min rest works, or if you're feeling really brave try 1min rest.

Blimey the thought of double the interval at same pace does not seem possible; I will have to go to 1:44/5 splits I think.

[Anth_F]

4x500m is not near enough for seriously training for a 2k TT!!

8x500 on no more than 2min rest works, or if you're feeling really brave try 1min rest.

Blimey the thought of double the interval at same pace does not seem possible; I will have to go to 1:44/5 splits I think.

It should feel tough after 4 reps, like you want to quit, but keep going the body can handle it. Try going faster the last 2 reps and empty the tank on the last one making that the fastest. By the end you should be lying on the floor in pain... this is how it's done. 8x500m done properly hurts a lot

[max_ratcliffe]

4x500m is not near enough for seriously training for a 2k TT!!

8x500 on no more than 2min rest works, or if you're feeling really brave try 1min rest.

Blimey the thought of double the interval at same pace does not seem possible; I will have to go to 1:44/5 splits I think.

It should feel tough after 4 reps, like you want to quit, but keep going the body can handle it. Try going faster the last 2 reps and empty the tank on the last one making that the fastest. By the end you should be lying on the floor in pain... this is how it's done. 8x500m done properly hurts a lot

Yes, it does hurt!

In terms of pacing, I understand that the recommendations apply to what you can currently do, not a target split. So if you can currently do a 7:00 2k, aiming for a 1:45 split on an 8x500r1 is probably doable, and then do as Anth suggested and go all out on the final rep. But aiming for a 1:40 split (because your target is a 6:40 2k) will probably not end well!