How to determine pace range for different rows

[McMurphy]

Hi all,
Been registered for awhile I’m seldom here. I’m male, 67 y/o 6’0” around 220 pounds. Most rows are SS 5K rows. PB is 23:49.I’d like to vary my rows but I’m having difficulty figuring what paces to aim for on different distances and types of rows ie. sprints/intervals etc.

There was a link to an interactive program that plugged in different paces but it’s dead. I’d like to change things up so that every row isn’t a damn race with myself. Thanks for any suggestions

[JimS]

This is one beef I have with a lot of the popular programs. There are so many different distances and workouts its hard to get the pacing right. This seems pretty offputting for beginners.

My suggestion is try and find 2 or 3 workouts you like and stick with them. Try and go a little faster each week.

Also, include some slower pace workouts which shouldnt feel hard. 3 tough workouts per week is probably about right.

[lindsayh]

racing your training is not a great idea - if you are pushing hard 5ks as your only session then not ideal and won't help cardio fitness as much as you would like. I think LSS sessions would be better if 30 to 40 minutes rather than 20 - so would be good to slow down a bit and go longer.
The problem with pace prescriptions is that they are very dependant on individuals different physiology/strengths/weaknesses/fitness. You can really only learn from doing which is what Jim is saying. You quickly learn what your own limits are. Some people are just better at them and you will of course get better too.
I like time rather than distance intervals with some varying of rest time, stroke rate and number done. The ones I like are 1'-4' active with 1'-3'R and 10 to 20 times (although can go up to 30 on 1/1R and 45"/75"R). The good thing is to set a pace line in the sand and just stay under it.

[jamesg]

It's a problem of experience. Since we all differ, you are entering uncharted territory; it's not like reading the menu. You have to write it yourself as you go. There is no correct pace; intervals are done by doing the first few slow to warm up and get in the groove. Then hold it. Next time adjust, based on experience. Training always has an effect, so in any case we can adjust.

The only parameter the oarsman has is rating - strokes per minute. Power is proportional to rating if we use the same stroke. The erg shows both. So if you do your 5k at rate 20, faster shorter intervals could be at 22: 10% higher rating, 10% more power. Try it, it's an experiment and experiments never go wrong, they always tell us something if we listen. That's when they become experience.

If you want to test yourself, do a 500 m almost as fast as possible, note the Watts and then train at around half that power.

This is a typical beginner program that tells us what to do. How we do it is our problem:
https://www.britishrowing.org/wp-conten ... n_P3-5.pdf

The disappeared Interactive had training bands based on a 2k test. The maximum aerobic level for training was 80% of 2k power (AT). Slower bands ended at 60 and 70%. Ratings can be used instead, so if you race at say 32, aerobic training will be at 18-26.

[McMurphy]

Thanks all for the suggestions. Pacing is something I still struggle with. Something to work on.

[MPx]

Couple of specifics to try to help further:

When doing intervals, its hard to pace, and nice to see progress rather than failure. Doing them "Pete Plan" style can help. That is, first time through pick a pace that you're very confident that you can finish at. Row all but the last interval at that pace. Row the last interval as fast as you can...hopefully will be faster than the others. This will give you an average pace across the whole set which will be lower than your initial target. Use that average as your target pace the next time you do the same piece for all but the last interval. Row the last interval faster if poss. Repeat...

Your 5k pace looks to be about 2:23 currently. Suggests you may be able to do a 2k at 2:16 ish??? May be worth having a go to find out. If you can, then
4x 1k r3:30 or 6x 500m r2 or 8x500 r3:30 should be poss at around 2:15
10x1 min r1 at maybe 2:08

Doesn't matter if the timings are a bit off, the set-off-at-last-times-average will quickly find the right level.

Just don't be in too much of a hurry and try to do too much too quick. No more than two hard intervals a week and don't repeat the same session too often. The Pete Plan suggests a 3 week cycle, Wolverine Plan 4 weeks but I find even that too soon to have made much difference so I do a 5 or 6 week cycle..... If you want more ideas of typical intervals to do, just look at the training thread and see what others are doing.

Good luck

[McMurphy]

Mike,
Thanks for the advice. It seems like a good idea to utilize the Pete Plan style paces. The 2:23 pace for the 5K was a PB.

[MPx]

The 2:23 pace for the 5K was a PB.

Yeah, I guessed as much. The sort of intervals suggested are supposed to be done hard - as hard as you can. The rest (and the majority) of your training should be much more comfortable. In our Indoor Rowing world, most suggested targets for hard intervals are based off a 2k (PB) - hence suggesting you do one. But another "rule of thumb" is that there will be about 7s diff in pace between a 2k PB and a 5k PB. In practice its different for everyone, some of us prefer the shorter stuff and struggle over distance others the opposite. It is what it is, so as others have said you just have to find out for yourself, but at least you have a basic framework to make your initial guesses.

[McMurphy]

Thanks Mike! How would you adjust various paces, intervals, steady state etc based on a 2k ? Been rowing awhile but mostly the 5 k distance. Best 2k is 9:01 slow I know.

[Ombrax]

In a related matter, let's say we're using my avg power in a PB 2k piece as a baseline.

What would you recommend my average power should be (as a % of my PB 2k) for a basic 7.5-10k workout? Not an attempt at a 7.5-10k PB, but for a "regular" good workout.

I ask because I'm having a hard time motivating myself to do longer distances because I keep thinking of my 2k workout pace and thinking how I'd die if I tried to row longer distances at that pace. However, I know that doing only hard workouts is a mistake, so I'm trying to figure out a way to force myself to back off a bit to do longer pieces.

Thanks

[lindsayh]

What would you recommend my average power should be (as a % of my PB 2k) for a basic 7.5-10k workout? Not an attempt at a 7.5-10k PB, but for a "regular" good workout.
I ask because I'm having a hard time motivating myself to do longer distances because I keep thinking of my 2k workout pace and thinking how I'd die if I tried to row longer distances at that pace. However, I know that doing only hard workouts is a mistake, so I'm trying to figure out a way to force myself to back off a bit to do longer pieces.
Thanks

My understanding is that long steady sessions in that 30 - 60 minutes range are best done at around say 2k+15/20. This could also be around 70% of 2k pace and is a proxy for say 80% of heart rate reserve. This sounds and feels slow to start but it is a pretty good goal. Try stroke rates in the 22-25 range. The best motivation is that it is doing you good!
Some like music and movies etc and others just concentrate on the strokes and count down. One way to do it is to break it up by intervals such as 3/4 x13'/2'R or 3x 18'/2'R. You may be less tempted to race if sessions are training to time not distance.

[MPx]

Thanks Mike! How would you adjust various paces, intervals, steady state etc based on a 2k ? Been rowing awhile but mostly the 5 k distance. Best 2k is 9:01 slow I know.

OK, so that worked out as I suggested in line with the "norm". Your 2k PB pace is 2:15 and your 5k PB pace is 2:23...so 8s difference against a rule of thumb 7s - pretty close and it'll probably get closer as you speed up a bit. What you need to work out next is a training plan. Simply repeat rowing 5ks will get you much fitter than not rowing 5ks but it will be hard to sustain an improvement and you'll probably die of boredom! How many sessions per week are you going to be able to maintain? And how long can each session be? There are various ready made plans out there (google them) - the BPP (Beginner Pete Plan; or the Pete Plan (both targeted at 3 to 5 sessions a week of about an hour); or the Wolverine Plan; and I'm sure there's many more). Or you can devise your own which might concentrate more on the things you like and minimise what you hate. That's why I have my own plan. In any given week I do 5 or 6 sessions. 1 set of sprint intervals (less than 1k each rep) which is a hard fast but short session; 1 set of longer intervals 1k, 1.5k, 2k or similar which are done to work pretty hard but inevitably have to be slower than the sprints! The other sessions are longer, but much much slower and typically rate restricted to 20 spm or similar. The idea is that the long slow stuff builds some kind of aerobic base while the short fast intervals trains the anaerobic side and gets you used to the pain! Basically what Lindsay said!

In terms of pace, those intervals I suggested before gives the idea (2k -1s for the first line and 2k -7s for the 10x1). There is a balance between distance, number of reps, and length of rest. But don't get hung up on it. Use the examples to make a guess, but learn from what you actually achieve and use that for your next go. If you go off too slow, a fast last will quickly bring the average down ready for next time. If you go off too fast, you'll die (!) but just keep paddling as best you can. It'll be slow, but if you finish it'll still give you a slower average and you'll know to aim for that next time.

[Ombrax]

My understanding is that long steady sessions in that 30 - 60 minutes range are best done at around say 2k+15/20.

Thanks Lindsay.

I'm pretty sure I've done a 30 min steady-state piece at PB 2k+12-13 but significantly more time near that pace would be a challenge. Maybe one of these days I'll see what I can do for 45 min, then, maybe work my way up from there.

My main challenge is accepting that fact that rowing slower for longer distances doesn't mean that I'm not getting a good workout.

[MPx]

My main challenge is accepting that fact that rowing slower for longer distances doesn't mean that I'm not getting a good workout.

This might be where Lindsay's stroke rate suggestion comes in. What stroke rate are you using on longer slower distances over shorter faster? If you normally do (say) 27/28 spm for a 5k and 32/33 spm for 2k then when doing the steady state longer sessions try cutting this back to 20 or 22. That way each stroke has to remain powerful (to maintain the 2k+15 pace) but because you're doing so many less strokes - ie longer recoveries - you can keep going longer but you'll still feel it as a hard workout in the legs. I sweat buckets on my regular 8ks @ 20spm @ 2k +18 pace.

Just don't get too prescriptive about always doing the same otherwise you'll train a good @20 performance and wont be able to rate back up to your "natural" free stroke rate when you want to.

[Ombrax]

For the vast majority of my workouts I do my best to maintain a 20-22 spm rate, with the following two exceptions:

1) If I really am going for an "as hard as possible, best possible time" piece, for example if I'm having a bragging contest with a buddy of mine, then I end up closer to 25-28 spm. (Since this sort of workout really kills me for a day or so after, I hardly ever do it, maybe once or twice a year)

2) For the last ~1k of many of my workouts I try to maintain negative splits, and as the displayed avg pace decreases each time the avg pace goes down a second I try to push my pace to the next second below that, then for the last 200m I count off each stroke in my head and give each one all I have left. Depending on how tired I am by this point, my spm can get up there. But that's just for the very end, so on average I still have a pretty low stroke rate.