Concept2 Forum

I appreciate overtraining is subjective, and can occur over a period of time rather than all of a sudden...but im feeling a little unsure of the best way forward.

So, to put you in the picture. I have been rowing around 6 months, 3 days on and 1 day off as i have always structured my gym training. First few months i made it up as i went along with no real structure (500m intervals x12 mostly) combined with 30min treadmill or elliptical. I read some basic routines online and got a little more serious about my rowing and started rowing 2k's combined with 500m interval sessions, still no structure as such...but slightly more informed. Tested my 2k and scored my PB which i was ecstatic about as i remember how difficult i used to find a sub 8min 2k. Decided to exclusively row for my cardio, goals were (and still are) to continue to loose fat and work towards more PB's. The last few months my knowledege has further improved, although everytime i come on this forum i add more and more strings to my bow...and i suspect that will continue for years to come. Around this time (2 months ago, maybe 3) i upped the volume quite considerably, to 15k per day. My thinking was more about getting a good calorie burn rather than breaking PB's. I only did occasional speed work although i understood combining speed, endurance and steady state was the best way forward for a more rounded programme. I felt pretty good between sessions and felt fairly recovered, after my day off i would feel refreshed and couldnt wait to get back on the erg.

It was less than a month ago the trouble started. I started itching for another 2k PB and introduced more speed work alongside my daily 15k's. So days where i was doing intervals which amounted to 4k, i would add extra volume. Or i would row the 15k but add in some intervals every 4min or whatever i felt like doing. I noticed a dip in recovery but put it down to an adjustment period and carried on regardless. Few weeks ago some old injuries re surfaced and just wasnt feeling fresh anymore. Legs were constantly feeling very heavy, aching and a general tired feeling...no get up and go type feeling, everything outside the gym felt an effort. Things came to a head last week and decided on a reluctant week rest. Managed 3 days off and went for 60min steady state easy row @2:15 which felt very slow and almost pointless. Had a further 2 days off and felt a little better, knees and shoulders still not right but manageable.

Just finnished my 3 day cycle and i now have a day off, the first 2 sessions were an easy. 15k @2:05 and 10k @2:00. Today i did a 30r20 and it felt really good...almost like a recovery session.

Was i wrong to combine the steady state 15k's with speed work? Should i reduce the volume if im going to row more instense? The 3x sessions 2 or 3 months ago SS for 15k felt pretty good at the time but was the increase in volume too sudden...i guess its possible the "overtraining" was creeping in then, although i felt reasonable. Looking back, i feel the last month was definately the straw that broke the camels back...the 15k a day combined with the intense speed work. I feel that may be a little too much for me at this point...or is it? Is there a better way to structure it? 2 days intense and a recovery session like todays 30r20.

There are some other factors at play to consider; a recent decline in sleep quality being summer, i have been drinking alcohol more often on my days off and not getting a good sleep in, i am on a calorie deficit of 1500 to 1600...could this be affecting my bodies ability to repair itself.

Does this sound like too much volume for someone of my experience or have the other factors took their toll. Am i just being a wimp? Any suggestions would greatly help.

You're not being a wimp, sounds like you're over-reaching for where you are at the moment. Clearly you're not absorbing your training....the more you train the more you CAN train, until you break. Overtraining is quite hard to do where you get yourself into a hole that takes weeks/months to get out of.

Lots of questions/things:
1. what are the nature of your injuries?
2. in a way it's good you've found your "breaking point"
3. "i feel the last month was definately the straw that broke the camels back...the 15k a day combined with the intense speed work."
-answered your own question
4. in general you can't add speed work and keep volume AS HIGH...periodisation means replacing something with something else temporarily
5. what sort of weight are you at 6'0"? The calorie deficit sounds too much even if you're v overweight and TBH with what you've been able to attain already suggests you aren't.
6. Your 500m isn't that good c/w your 2K....is there a reason for that?
7. How much alcohol? Generally that affects muscle synthesis and dehydrates you obvs. Lack of sleep - v hard to optimise that consistently...unless it's really awful FOR YOU it won't affect you big-time but you'll never "fly" unless you get it right most of the time.
8. do also remember that with most people if you take 2 or more days off your blood plasma volume will drop...so when you come back to the erg you'll find thing MORE difficult. Yes, it's inidividual but most people won't feel "on it" after 2 days off or more...

Paul has covered it. I think you're calorie deficit and lack of sleep are the biggest culprits.

I have been struggling in July and I know quite a few others having the same issue too, so it might be just a dip in your cycle.

Gammmmo wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 7:36 am

Lots of questions/things:
1. what are the nature of your injuries?
2. in a way it's good you've found your "breaking point"
3. "i feel the last month was definately the straw that broke the camels back...the 15k a day combined with the intense speed work."
-answered your own question
4. in general you can't add speed work and keep volume AS HIGH...periodisation means replacing something with something else temporarily
5. what sort of weight are you at 6'0"? The calorie deficit sounds too much even if you're v overweight and TBH with what you've been able to attain already suggests you aren't.
6. Your 500m isn't that good c/w your 2K....is there a reason for that?
7. How much alcohol? Generally that affects muscle synthesis and dehydrates you obvs. Lack of sleep - v hard to optimise that consistently...unless it's really awful FOR YOU it won't affect you big-time but you'll never "fly" unless you get it right most of the time.
8. do also remember that with most people if you take 2 or more days off your blood plasma volume will drop...so when you come back to the erg you'll find thing MORE difficult. Yes, it's inidividual but most people won't feel "on it" after 2 days off or more...

1. Shoulder impingement/tendonitis and patella tendonitis of the knees. Both self diagnosed but have responded well to rehab routines i picked up online.

5. 18stone 5lb...not sure in lbs, 280 or so?

6. Not 100%, i have struggled to rate up in the past although i have addressed that recently. I feel i could do better if i were to re test...other than that im not 100%.

7. Not a great deal, 12x330ml corona once a week. Its just that before it was barely once a month and often every few. I dont get a great sleep and have a mild hangover...wondered if the bad sleep was costing precious recovery.

Im fairly certain ive never experienced true overtraining, maybe i was approaching it? Do you think the time ive had off will correct it? And if i bite the bullet and drop some volume on speed sessions.

Also, ive seen recovery sessions mentioned several times...what actually is one? Would the 30r20 count as one...i was struck by how good it felt today. Enough to tick over but not add anymore stress/stimulus. I suppose doing one once/twice weekly would be a wise move? Whats the general consensus on how often and when?

Thanks for the detailed reply BTW

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 8:33 am

Paul has covered it. I think you're calorie deficit and lack of sleep are the biggest culprits.

I have been struggling in July and I know quite a few others having the same issue too, so it might be just a dip in your cycle.

Thanks stu, hopefully its a phase...but either way im going to address some things it as i dont think they are doing me any favours whatsoever.

Would 2000cal be much more reasonable or should i perhaps consume my RDA of 2,500?

EDIT
I should add, i do have a couple of cheat meals on one of my days off. Nothing crazy, 12 corona and pizza or chicken burgers, followed by a bacon and sausage sandwhich for breakfast the next morning. Not sure if that makes much difference, averaging out cals over a week. 15 to 1600 is what i consume on my diet day...cheat day im not sure.

Tim huges wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 8:45 am

Would 2000cal be much more reasonable or should i perhaps consume my RDA of 2,500?

EDIT
I should add, i do have a couple of cheat meals on one of my days off. Nothing crazy, 12 corona and pizza or chicken burgers, followed by a bacon and sausage sandwhich for breakfast the next morning. Not sure if that makes much difference, averaging out cals over a week. 15 to 1600 is what i consume on my diet day...cheat day im not sure.

Generally, a calorie deficit of 500/day would be considered fairly substantial. There is nothing wrong with having fast food sometimes at the level most of us are at on here but you do need to bear in mind you have enough carbs/calories on days when you erg to feel well fuelled and to replenish glycogen stores afterwards so you can repeat the next day. To be frank, you are heavy for your height and the weight should shift rapidly at the start. I think you've got the right idea with lots of steady volume - that's a good way to get skinnier. I'd also say you are impairing your training alot (the following day) if you're drinking 12 beers in one go too. I suppose it all comes down to what you want to achieve....re: weight and performance. Play the long game with this and you will see big changes.

@ Tim, just adding to the above posts. i'm in a similar position too.
1.Lack of sleep, massive tick. I work part time mostly, but have to get up at 03:30 when i do.But the harder the training becomes, i find i"ll wake at 01:30 even on days off.
2.Very heavy legs...Been on Pete plan since 22/4
3.Calorie wise i don't go short, if anything i'll over eat.If not nailed down
4.I've been adding extra Ut2 10k's as well, on to my sessions
I've recently found my endurance intervals are suffering at present.Not completing the whole session, feeling very empty in the legs.
I'm not worried by this, i shall ease off a bit now for 3 weeks primarily due to extra work being undertaken.
My recommendation would be to eat more quality natural foods and cut down on the p*ss, no screen time after 6pm.Try that and if you feel the need reduce the K's for a while. i.e speed one day then 10k-15k the next.
On 22 April i gave my self until Aug to try and do a 2k p.b. didn't quite get it, but matched last years p.b.

Gammmmo wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 10:46 am

Tim huges wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 8:45 am

Would 2000cal be much more reasonable or should i perhaps consume my RDA of 2,500?

EDIT
I should add, i do have a couple of cheat meals on one of my days off. Nothing crazy, 12 corona and pizza or chicken burgers, followed by a bacon and sausage sandwhich for breakfast the next morning. Not sure if that makes much difference, averaging out cals over a week. 15 to 1600 is what i consume on my diet day...cheat day im not sure.

Generally, a calorie deficit of 500/day would be considered fairly substantial. There is nothing wrong with having fast food sometimes at the level most of us are at on here but you do need to bear in mind you have enough carbs/calories on days when you erg to feel well fuelled and to replenish glycogen stores afterwards so you can repeat the next day. To be frank, you are heavy for your height and the weight should shift rapidly at the start. I think you've got the right idea with lots of steady volume - that's a good way to get skinnier. I'd also say you are impairing your training alot (the following day) if you're drinking 12 beers in one go too. I suppose it all comes down to what you want to achieve....re: weight and performance. Play the long game with this and you will see big changes.

The only reason i dropped the calories so low is because the weightloss really slowed down. When i first got back into the gym 18months ago i was almost 29 stone...it was so easy and the weight just melted off with even gentle workouts. I mean ive been a gym goer/jogger on and off since my teens so i have a fair idea of general training so i hit the ground running so to speak.

Part of it, thinking about it now...is im still aiming for the rapid weightloss i started with. Which was 4/5lb some weeks. I think i should aim much lower, 1 to 2lb. I know im answering my own question again but im realising a few truths from this post.

Yeah i dont bother drinking the night before a gym session, always on the night before my rest day. I know some people who train to cure a hangover, dunno how they do it! Last thing id wanna do.

Alot to think about, going to change up my diet and adjust my training approach. Thanks again.

Andrew Shuck wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 11:07 am

@ Tim, just adding to the above posts. i'm in a similar position too.
1.Lack of sleep, massive tick. I work part time mostly, but have to get up at 03:30 when i do.But the harder the training becomes, i find i"ll wake at 01:30 even on days off.
2.Very heavy legs...Been on Pete plan since 22/4
3.Calorie wise i don't go short, if anything i'll over eat.If not nailed down
4.I've been adding extra Ut2 10k's as well, on to my sessions
I've recently found my endurance intervals are suffering at present.Not completing the whole session, feeling very empty in the legs.
I'm not worried by this, i shall ease off a bit now for 3 weeks primarily due to extra work being undertaken.
My recommendation would be to eat more quality natural foods and cut down on the p*ss, no screen time after 6pm.Try that and if you feel the need reduce the K's for a while. i.e speed one day then 10k-15k the next.
On 22 April i gave my self until Aug to try and do a 2k p.b. didn't quite get it, but matched last years p.b.

Sounds identical to me mate...which is a little reassuring. Especially about the heavy legs, bad sleep and feeling empty in sessions. Could definately aim for more sleep with some extra discipline, turning the TV off earlier etc. This post has opened my eyes regarding nutrition, i thought it might be a minor factor which is why i mentioned it...but everyone seems to think its important. I dont need much of an excuse to eat more lol. The drinks become a bit of a habit again...im sure with some more discipline it can go back to special occasions rather than every week.

Thats great re the 2K...not quite what you wanted im sure but 6:20 is superb still. I secretly hope to be at 6:30 or under...the day i score a 6:20 i'll definately be celebrating with a beer or 3! Perhaps not for a while after my last few weeks...still...its a lesson learned.

The thing with training is that there is no one size fits all, so you need to find your tipping point. Have a play around and do some lighter and slower efforts but just listen to your body and you will eventually (most of the time) be able to differentiate between laziness and tiredness.

Recovery sessions are easy and slow, so a 30r20 could be a recovery session if you did it at an easy pace. Aim for 2k + 25/30. We just aren't able to keep hammering out hard intense sessions week after week, unless you're an elite!

Weight loss, like progress on the erg isn't linear and you will reach diminishing returns quite quickly. I think that is where a lot of people give up as it becomes a challenge.

I agree dropping that many calories will not be helping your progress and with everything put together your head and body are struggling to keep up with your erging progress.

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 11:46 am

The thing with training is that there is no one size fits all, so you need to find your tipping point. Have a play around and do some lighter and slower efforts but just listen to your body and you will eventually (most of the time) be able to differentiate between laziness and tiredness.

Recovery sessions are easy and slow, so a 30r20 could be a recovery session if you did it at an easy pace. Aim for 2k + 25/30. We just aren't able to keep hammering out hard intense sessions week after week, unless you're an elite!

Weight loss, like progress on the erg isn't linear and you will reach diminishing returns quite quickly. I think that is where a lot of people give up as it becomes a challenge.

I agree dropping that many calories will not be helping your progress and with everything put together your head and body are struggling to keep up with your erging progress.

Appreciate it, always generous with the advice stu. Just want it all sorted and feeling good again...much better than i was but im missing giving an erg session my all and admiring the pool of sweat after! Gotta box clever for a while and hopefully pick up from where i left off soon.

I agree with the previous postings, just my 2 extra cents:
A calory deficit of 2000 is really a lot, with your current food intake i doubt you get enough vitamins, micronutrients etc. And burning about 4lb of body fat per week will release a lot of metabolites (I hope that's correct, I'm no native speaker) in your system which is very demanding. As the others said, a deficit of 500, maybe 1000 is OK, take care to eat quality food, drink enough (water ) to flush out the waste products, and sleep enough, this will make a huge difference I think.
@recovery session: I like short and easy recovery sessions (10-20min, pace 2:20 or slower), and then a long streching session to relax the muscles, I also use a foam roll.
Good luck, your PBs are already very good, still a lot of room to improve!

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 12:42 pm

I agree with the previous postings, just my 2 extra cents:
A calory deficit of 2000 is really a lot, with your current food intake i doubt you get enough vitamins, micronutrients etc. And burning about 4lb of body fat per week will release a lot of metabolites (I hope that's correct, I'm no native speaker) in your system which is very demanding. As the others said, a deficit of 500, maybe 1000 is OK, take care to eat quality food, drink enough (water ) to flush out the waste products, and sleep enough, this will make a huge difference I think.
@recovery session: I like short and easy recovery sessions (10-20min, pace 2:20 or slower), and then a long streching session to relax the muscles, I also use a foam roll.
Good luck, your PBs are already very good, still a lot of room to improve!

Thanks martin, im pleased with what ive done so far but i do feel ive got more to give...just got to get the balance of training, recovery and nutrition right. I do feel rowing is the most demanding physical hobby ive ever done so its all a learning process.

So should my daily calorie needs include my gym activity? The UK government reccomended daily calories is 2,500...lets say i burn 1000 in the gym...with a 500 reduction should i aim to eat 3,000 or 2,000? Does that make sense, not sure that was explained well or not?

Had no idea about the metabolite issue, not very knowledgable about thats sort of thing...i'll look into it and educate myself.

Tim huges wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 1:06 pm

MartinSH4321 wrote: ↑

August 2nd, 2019, 12:42 pm

I agree with the previous postings, just my 2 extra cents:
A calory deficit of 2000 is really a lot, with your current food intake i doubt you get enough vitamins, micronutrients etc. And burning about 4lb of body fat per week will release a lot of metabolites (I hope that's correct, I'm no native speaker) in your system which is very demanding. As the others said, a deficit of 500, maybe 1000 is OK, take care to eat quality food, drink enough (water ) to flush out the waste products, and sleep enough, this will make a huge difference I think.
@recovery session: I like short and easy recovery sessions (10-20min, pace 2:20 or slower), and then a long streching session to relax the muscles, I also use a foam roll.
Good luck, your PBs are already very good, still a lot of room to improve!

Thanks martin, im pleased with what ive done so far but i do feel ive got more to give...just got to get the balance of training, recovery and nutrition right. I do feel rowing is the most demanding physical hobby ive ever done so its all a learning process.

So should my daily calorie needs include my gym activity? The UK government reccomended daily calories is 2,500...lets say i burn 1000 in the gym...with a 500 reduction should i aim to eat 3,000 or 2,000? Does that make sense, not sure that was explained well or not?

Had no idea about the metabolite issue, not very knowledgable about thats sort of thing...i'll look into it and educate myself.

I don't have a strict eating plan, but a few months ago I documented all my food intake and analyzed it. I found out that I eat about 4.200 kcal on average, and the analyse showed that my basic metabolic rate is at 3.500 and I aditionally eat about 1000 per hour of sport on average.
So I would recommend to eat according to your training schedule. When you train long eat a bit more, and when you rest a good bit less.
I would also recommend to write down what you eat for at least 2 weeks to have a good overview.