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new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 24th, 2019, 5:05 pm
by jcjenn
Hi- My question is related to spm, but I didn't know where to put it so hopefully okay to start a new topic. It's a really n00b question- how do you slow down but keep power in your drive? Do you execute the drive at the same speed every time and just adjust the return speed, or do you slow the whole thing? but then if you slow the whole thing how do you keep the power in the drive?
Thank you-
Jenny
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 24th, 2019, 6:44 pm
by MPx
Drive should always be fast - recovery time varies. Some "rule of thumb" ideas I've seen are 1:3 for steady state; 1:2 for distance TTs; 1:1 for sprints. I've also read that ideally the drive should also always be at the same force and that pace is varied simply by the rate....but I doubt many non-elite ergers can manage that. I certainly dont!
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 24th, 2019, 7:58 pm
by jcjenn
MPx wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 6:44 pm
Drive should always be fast - recovery time varies. Some "rule of thumb" ideas I've seen are 1:3 for steady state; 1:2 for distance TTs; 1:1 for sprints. I've also read that ideally the drive should also always be at the same force and that pace is varied simply by the rate....but I doubt many non-elite ergers can manage that. I certainly dont!
Thanks for the reply! Yes exactly what I was wondering- how would you go about achieving the same force with different rates- i don't think my body does that. lol. Those rules of thumbs ought to help me out. Thanks!
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 1:12 am
by jcjenn
I did some 600 m rows in a crossfit wod today, and tried to focus on keeping the spm under 27. I did ok, and was able to keep a 2 min split for awhile like that. I also worked on making the drive longer in distance by letting my shoulders go forward more at the catch, and that small change actually helped a lot. I used to do workouts like this around 32 spm and basically as fast as I did today. But someone please tell me if working for a slower spm is not the right approach?
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 2:39 am
by Allan Olesen
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 1:12 am
I did some 600 m rows in a crossfit wod today, and tried to focus on keeping the spm under 27. I did ok, and was able to keep a 2 min split for awhile like that.
The idea behind low SPM training is that when you do slow training sessions you should try to keep the same energy in each stroke, as you would in a race session. So you keep your drive phase unchanged, and slow down the recovery phase of the stroke.
However, if you did 2 minute splits, was this a slow training session, or was it more equal to a 2k race session? In the latter case, you should probably not worry much about SPM and instead just do what feels natural to you.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 2:43 am
by hjs
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 1:12 am
I did some 600 m rows in a crossfit wod today, and tried to focus on keeping the spm under 27. I did ok, and was able to keep a 2 min split for awhile like that. I also worked on making the drive longer in distance by letting my shoulders go forward more at the catch, and that small change actually helped a lot. I used to do workouts like this around 32 spm and basically as fast as I did today. But someone please tell me if working for a slower spm is not the right approach?
Lowering your spm is training, if you race or test, you use a free spm, which gives you the fastest split.
Making the stroke overly long is not great. Risk of injury.
Lowering spm in training while keeping a good speed, will build you a stronger stroke. Crossfitters do already a lot strenghtwork, fitness is often your weakness, not strenght.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 4:18 am
by jamesg
Your pace 2' at 27 looks like good strokes, so well done.
To go fast afloat we need good strokes and the endurance to pull a lot of them in a short time at say 28-32, which is gained by pulling a lot of them in long times and distances at 18-24. Start with quality.
If you're not lifting your hands over your knees during the recovery and don't bring the slide too near your heels at the catch, a solid leg-driven stroke will come naturally. Low feet and low drag can help.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 11:47 am
by jcjenn
Allan Olesen wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 2:39 am
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 1:12 am
I did some 600 m rows in a crossfit wod today, and tried to focus on keeping the spm under 27. I did ok, and was able to keep a 2 min split for awhile like that.
The idea behind low SPM training is that when you do slow training sessions you should try to keep the same energy in each stroke, as you would in a race session. So you keep your drive phase unchanged, and slow down the recovery phase of the stroke.
However, if you did 2 minute splits, was this a slow training session, or was it more equal to a 2k race session? In the latter case, you should probably not worry much about SPM and instead just do what feels natural to you.
Ah okay I see. It's probably good for me to do slow sessions then because i do feel like i'm just sort of all over the place at the moment. Good to practice being consistent.
This particular workout was a 'chipper' with a 30 min time cap. high volume exercise, then 600 m row, high volume exercise, 600 m row, high volume exercise, 600 m row, ending with 25 clean and jerks. Nobody told me to try to lower the spm, i just wanted to see if i could and still keep an okay time. Also, let me clarify- I did 2 min split 'for awhile' in the first 600 m.
after that all bets were off! But hey i finished under the time cap which is a win for me.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 11:55 am
by jcjenn
hjs wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 2:43 am
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 1:12 am
I did some 600 m rows in a crossfit wod today, and tried to focus on keeping the spm under 27. I did ok, and was able to keep a 2 min split for awhile like that. I also worked on making the drive longer in distance by letting my shoulders go forward more at the catch, and that small change actually helped a lot. I used to do workouts like this around 32 spm and basically as fast as I did today. But someone please tell me if working for a slower spm is not the right approach?
Lowering your spm is training, if you race or test, you use a free spm, which gives you the fastest split.
Making the stroke overly long is not great. Risk of injury.
Lowering spm in training while keeping a good speed, will build you a stronger stroke. Crossfitters do already a lot strenghtwork, fitness is often your weakness, not strenght.
Is there a way to know how long a stroke length to aim for? I am 5'10. I do actually think my stroke was too short before- only because i wasn't letting my shoulders sort of relax all the way forward at the catch -does that make sense? I saw a couple videos that talked about position at the catch (sorry i sound like an annoying new person) and i clearly was not doing what he demonstrated with my shoulders. I think yesterday I was allowing the seat to get too close to my feet though.
I'd say i'm just a pile of weaknesses, but yes fitness ranks up there. Although, i'm doing okay for an old-ish lady.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 11:59 am
by Cyclist2
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 7:58 pm
Yes exactly what I was wondering- how would you go about achieving the same force with different rates
There is a metric that is you'll see here; watts per stroke (W/S for now). It is the watts you see on the monitor divided by your stroke rate. To keep the same W/S you need to put more watts in at higher stroke rates, obviously. That makes it very hard to make each stroke as powerful at higher rates, but your pace will get lots faster. I try to shoot for a particular W/S, say 8, then adjust the watts I'm pulling based on the stroke rate I want. That gives me, approximately, the same power in each stroke. So for 25spm I would pull 200 watts, but at 20spm I would pull 160 watts.
Play with that for awhile and you'll figure out the answer to your question.
Regarding the lengthening stroke, I agree with HJS, don't artificially make your strokes long. Make ALL your strokes the same - good form, same length. Adjust the power you put into each stroke and/or the stroke rate.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 12:05 pm
by jcjenn
jamesg wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 4:18 am
Your pace 2' at 27 looks like good strokes, so well done.
To go fast afloat we need good strokes and the endurance to pull a lot of them in a short time at say 28-32, which is gained by pulling a lot of them in long times and distances at 18-24. Start with quality.
If you're not lifting your hands over your knees during the recovery and don't bring the slide too near your heels at the catch, a solid leg-driven stroke will come naturally. Low feet and low drag can help.
Well, i only held that for a bit. But I did it!
I've never been much of a long distance person (I did the shorter of the middle distances in track, and played sports which required a lot of sprinting/stopping) but I did manage a 10k once running. Ugh. However I do understand the idea of endurance bringing strength to the shorter events. And also i just need to practice.
I'm not sure i can even imagine how a person would need to lift their hands over their knees during the recovery? bending legs before arms are fully extended?
Okay so the low feet- how do you do that if your feet are small? meaning in order to get the strap around the middle of my foot, my heels are automatically no where near the bottom of the foot platform. Is the platform itself adjustable? I'm gathering that it isn't, but maybe?
Thanks!
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 12:19 pm
by jcjenn
Cyclist2 wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:59 am
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 24th, 2019, 7:58 pm
Yes exactly what I was wondering- how would you go about achieving the same force with different rates
There is a metric that is you'll see here; watts per stroke (W/S for now). It is the watts you see on the monitor divided by your stroke rate. To keep the same W/S you need to put more watts in at higher stroke rates, obviously. That makes it very hard to make each stroke as powerful at higher rates, but your pace will get lots faster. I try to shoot for a particular W/S, say 8, then adjust the watts I'm pulling based on the stroke rate I want. That gives me, approximately, the same power in each stroke. So for 25spm I would pull 200 watts, but at 20spm I would pull 160 watts.
Play with that for awhile and you'll figure out the answer to your question.
Regarding the lengthening stroke, I agree with HJS, don't artificially make your strokes long. Make ALL your strokes the same - good form, same length. Adjust the power you put into each stroke and/or the stroke rate.
Ah okay- that's a good suggestion. Nerd question- is it watts/spm which would be essentially joules/stroke or is it actually watts /stroke ? I mean it doesn't matter, but just so I know the lingo. I think the basic idea is to put the same amount of power into the machine with each stroke. Now making my body do that - roll of the dice! lol.
i think it's less making my stroke artificially too long and more being conscious of not allowing my crudded up hip to make me lazy at the catch. And also i wasn't letting my shoulders roll forward at all. But I also was allowing my seat to get too close yesterday, so i'll keep trying for the happy medium.
Thanks for the response!
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 1:35 pm
by hjs
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:55 am
hjs wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 2:43 am
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 1:12 am
I did some 600 m rows in a crossfit wod today, and tried to focus on keeping the spm under 27. I did ok, and was able to keep a 2 min split for awhile like that. I also worked on making the drive longer in distance by letting my shoulders go forward more at the catch, and that small change actually helped a lot. I used to do workouts like this around 32 spm and basically as fast as I did today. But someone please tell me if working for a slower spm is not the right approach?
Lowering your spm is training, if you race or test, you use a free spm, which gives you the fastest split.
Making the stroke overly long is not great. Risk of injury.
Lowering spm in training while keeping a good speed, will build you a stronger stroke. Crossfitters do already a lot strenghtwork, fitness is often your weakness, not strenght.
Is there a way to know how long a stroke length to aim for? I am 5'10. I do actually think my stroke was too short before- only because i wasn't letting my shoulders sort of relax all the way forward at the catch -does that make sense? I saw a couple videos that talked about position at the catch (sorry i sound like an annoying new person) and i clearly was not doing what he demonstrated with my shoulders. I think yesterday I was allowing the seat to get too close to my feet though.
I'd say i'm just a pile of weaknesses, but yes fitness ranks up there. Although, i'm doing okay for an old-ish lady.
Nothing wrong with asking is there?
Re stroke lenght, you use an app, ergData which does Measure your strokelenght. Its not just height, shoulderwith, armlenght, torsoheight also matter. And for sprinting, strokes are shorter. Etc etc
Roughly speaking, I would say 125/30 cm would be about right.
And, you doing crossfit, rowing is just a part of that, it will be tough to get a very good technique. Try to just make it work for you. Build a solid, relax stroke. Even if that is not texbook.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 25th, 2019, 3:59 pm
by Allan Olesen
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 12:19 pm
Nerd question- is it watts/spm which would be essentially joules/stroke or is it actually watts /stroke ?
You are completely right about the concept: The result of the division will be energy per stroke. Not power per stroke.
However, the actual units of the result will be WattMinutes/Stroke, not Joule/Stroke.
1 WattMinute = 60 WattSeconds = 60 Joule.
So if you want Joule/Stroke, you will have to multiply the division result by 60.
Re: new-ish rower question about spm
Posted: April 26th, 2019, 2:41 am
by jcjenn
hjs wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 1:35 pm
jcjenn wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 11:55 am
hjs wrote: ↑April 25th, 2019, 2:43 am
Lowering your spm is training, if you race or test, you use a free spm, which gives you the fastest split.
Making the stroke overly long is not great. Risk of injury.
Lowering spm in training while keeping a good speed, will build you a stronger stroke. Crossfitters do already a lot strenghtwork, fitness is often your weakness, not strenght.
Is there a way to know how long a stroke length to aim for? I am 5'10. I do actually think my stroke was too short before- only because i wasn't letting my shoulders sort of relax all the way forward at the catch -does that make sense? I saw a couple videos that talked about position at the catch (sorry i sound like an annoying new person) and i clearly was not doing what he demonstrated with my shoulders. I think yesterday I was allowing the seat to get too close to my feet though.
I'd say i'm just a pile of weaknesses, but yes fitness ranks up there. Although, i'm doing okay for an old-ish lady.
Nothing wrong with asking is there?
Re stroke lenght, you use an app, ergData which does Measure your strokelenght. Its not just height, shoulderwith, armlenght, torsoheight also matter. And for sprinting, strokes are shorter. Etc etc
Roughly speaking, I would say 125/30 cm would be about right.
And, you doing crossfit, rowing is just a part of that, it will be tough to get a very good technique. Try to just make it work for you. Build a solid, relax stroke. Even if that is not texbook.
One that I remember from last weekend was only like 101 cm. I'll check it again and see what it is now after I've tried to improve a little. Rowing in crossfit is without an actual rowing coach / expert, but they have the basics. Its just maybe too much too soon, know what I mean?