Concept2 Forum

hi all!

first time posting here and as of this post, only 30,000ish lifetime meters ever. i posted on the reddit forum https://www.reddit.com/r/Rowing/comment ... questions/

got a couple of answers and tried to take the advise of one of them who was very responsive/helpful. i figured maybe it would be better to post on the C2 forum as well. prior to the 3 images below, i did about three 5,000m distances with a damper setting at 5. The first one is trying to slow my s/m down as per the reddit post, second one i set at damper setting 10, while the third one i set at 1.

https://log.concept2.com/profile/1233343/log/35966141
https://log.concept2.com/profile/1233343/log/35966142
https://log.concept2.com/profile/1233343/log/35966143

i dont think i will ever set the damper setting to 1 because i just felt so inefficient, like riding a bike on 1,1 gears... on damper setting 10 it felt like 3,6 (max 7) which i'm used to riding on a bike lol but for "training" or "workout purposes" i'll probably stick to damper setting 5 for now.

the reason for the post, after a long winded intro, is if someone can explain to me how to achieve something like this (a marathon row from the crossfit reddit) https://i.imgur.com/eKNp3pT.jpg in terms of /500m and s/m time...

i really tried with the damper setting 5 and 10 as noted above but i just feel like in order to get down to 22 average s/m... i have to sit in the catch position for a second or two...

TIA!

Watch the videos here (even if you have already): https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Then take some video of yourself on the erg and compare.

Most common errors are not getting the hands out in front of the knees early enough during the recovery, and not making sure that the drive (when you're pulling on the handle) is faster and the recovery relatively slower. If you shoot up the slide too fast on the recovery you will always end up with too high of a stroke rate.

First things first, work through these videos on the Concept2 site and apply them to your rowing: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Second, the C2 Monitor figures out the Watts (energy per second) you are dissipating on the erg and converts your watts into your pace. The watts calculation is based on the accelerations and decelerations of the the flywheel, the velocity of the flywheel, the aerodynamic drag of the flywheel, the force you are applying the handle and the length of your stroke. (The aerodynamic drag, force and stroke length are all calculated based on the flywheel velocity, accelerations and decelerations -- but that is serious physics and computer programming).

Third, why does the C2 use pace instead of watts as it primary measure? The aerodynamic drag of the C2 flywheel mimics the on the water hydrodynamic drag of a racing shell (boat). The C2 was invented by on the water rowers and it feels like real rowing. On the water rowers are not interested in the watts they are producing, but the speed they are going and pace gives them that information (in seconds/500m).

Fourth, why is your stroke rate so high? There are a number of factors, including, lack of experience (try throwing a ball with your left hand, it take practice to efficiently apply force to the handle -- you make up for this inefficiency by jacking up the rate), failure to swing your upper body forward and back at the hips (your upper body swings from 11 o'clock to 1o'clock and then back again), and failure to timely engage the handle at the front end of the stroke. All of these improve with experience and practice. Generally speaking, at the speed you are going, most experienced rowers spend one and a half to twice as much time on the recovery as they do on the drive. They also do not pause at the finish, but instead move smoothly. You will improve with time, particular as you become more experienced, coordinated and stronger.

Fifth, damper setting and drag factor. The drag factor -- not the damper setting -- is shown on your three workouts you cite. With the C2, the drag factor is calculated based on how fast the flywheel decelerates on the recovery. A dirty flywheel will cause a lower drag factor for a given damper setting. However, as long as you have the same drag factor (aka Drag Coefficient) you will be burning the same amount of energy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)

Sixth, for your question on how to row a marathon? I have never rowed a marathon. The longest I have ever rowed both continuously and hard is an hour. I would most likely row it at 21 to 24 strokes per minute, and my goal would be a little, but not much faster then the person you site. I think most experience rowers would gravitate towards a similar stroke rate, but there would be a significant number that would row it at a faster strokes per minute. It is a long hard slog. For you to row that fast would depend on your underlying aerobic capacity and how efficient you can become.

Lastly, Damper settings. I adjust the damper setting to get the drag factor I want. I mostly use drag factors between 105 and 140, but I will occasionally use drag factors from 75 to 210 (corresponding to damper settings 1 -10) depending on what I am working on (hard slog or quickness at the catch and efficient release)

Patience, pain, sweat and tears are all needed!

Slow down your stroke rate by one spm a week or two; dropping from 28ish to 20ish feels very strange. There shouldn't be any pause at the catch, you just need to really slow down the recovery slide; the drive remains constant with a powerful push. Try and do a 30r20 (30 mins at 20 spm, aka r20) and don't worry about the pace just get used to the power needed in comparison to r28.

Are you just after advice to slow down your stroke or are you intending on doing a marathon? I have done my fair share of them so I can help if you need it.

I have also done an FM at 28 spm and 22 spm, and neither felt notably easier than the other; the last 10km is horrible in both of them if you are going relatively fast.

You have a lot to learn. Really the answer to your question is that your current stroke is weak and/or inefficient. Your compensating for this by increasing your stroke rate. Obviously you cannot continue that for the length of a marathon row. You will need to gradually slow down you rate and improve the quality of your stroke.

When I was faced with this dilemma, I spent a month rowing 30 minutes, r20 strapless every day. Rowing without your feet in the straps will force your to use proper technique. It was a maddening but rewarding month. I would suggest you take the time now to analyze your technique rather than building a weak stroke.

Regarding waiting at the catch:

When you do the recovery part of the stroke too fast and end up waiting at the catch, you are wasting energy. You probably pulled yourself forward with your feet in the footstraps, right?

All the energy you used to accelerate your body forward was wasted. Well, you probably got some training benefit from it, but it did not end up in the display as power or pace. The monitor only sees the energy that you put into the handle.

If you want a more efficient recovery, try to row without your feet strapped in. Be really careful at first, so you don't end up on the floor behind the rower. When your feet are not strapped in, you can't brake with your feet at the end of the stroke, and you can't pull yourself forward with your feet. The only way you can pull yourself forward is by pulling the handle.

When doing this exercise, you will naturally end up using your arms later in the stroke - as you should - because it is needed to slow your body down at the end of the stroke. And when you do the recovery, you just have to wait for for the seat sliding forward by gravity.

You will probably not be able to row strapless at competition pace. But rowing strapless will give you the "feel" for the right stroke, which will also improve your competition stroke so you waste less energy in the footstraps.

is if someone can explain to me how to achieve something like this

First things to work on are the sequences and length of the stroke. Best length is reached with a recovery using the rowing sequence: arms away, then swing forward, then legs. This puts you into a strong posture which lets you pull a long stroke, very hard, with most of the work done by the legs.

See https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Rowing with a good stroke is very hard work, so it's best to keep the rating down. This lets us go on for a long time, which is called training when done almost every day.

Your stats line indicates that you have done HM, FM, and “ultramarathon” distance. Clearly you have the aerobic fitness and stamina to move your bodyweight back and forth on the slide. But your high rate “spinning” approach is producing on average only 4.4 watts per stroke. At 200 lbs. and assuming your are average hgt. (69”j or greater, I believe you should output on average 6-8 W/s as measured by the flywheel sensor. Get your rate down and your stroke power up. This will be a gradual process of training the stroke (long, fast drive, sloooooow recovery) rather than an intellectual decision which will instantly produce a sub-3’ marathon. All the advice above, especially strapless 20 rate work and a gradual adaptation to a lower workaday, bread ‘n butter rate, is good advice that has worked for thousands of indoor rowers.

Thank you all for the responses! i realized i may have not been quite clear regarding my post, intention and my specific questions so in my replies below i'll try and address as much as i can with what i'm trying to really ask.

Thank you all for bearing with me!

Mark E wrote: ↑

December 16th, 2018, 2:43 pm

Watch the videos here (even if you have already): https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Then take some video of yourself on the erg and compare.

Most common errors are not getting the hands out in front of the knees early enough during the recovery, and not making sure that the drive (when you're pulling on the handle) is faster and the recovery relatively slower. If you shoot up the slide too fast on the recovery you will always end up with too high of a stroke rate.

i've watched the video where i got the technique down (legs, back arms, arms back legs) but maybe i missed the portion of the video where the recovery isn't supposed to be fast. it almost feels as if i have to put more of a conscience effort into a slow recovery vs. a hard thrust with the legs in the drive...

about the recovery, at the start of the recovery my arms jerk forward but i'm guessing it's supposed to be like that?

i'll have to ask my wife, or maybe i can ask one of my sons to record me during one of my 5Ks lol

Remo wrote: ↑

December 16th, 2018, 3:45 pm

First things first, work through these videos on the Concept2 site and apply them to your rowing: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Fourth, why is your stroke rate so high? ... practice to efficiently apply force to the handle...at the speed you are going, most experienced rowers spend one and a half to twice as much time on the recovery as they do on the drive...

Fifth, damper setting and drag factor. The drag factor -- not the damper setting -- is shown on your three workouts you cite. With the C2, the drag factor is calculated based on how fast the flywheel decelerates on the recovery.

Sixth, for your question on how to row a marathon? I have never rowed a marathon.

Lastly, Damper settings. I adjust the damper setting to get the drag factor I want.

i appreciate you writing a lot and so to answer a few things i've edited your post as such

regarding the video, please see my response above.

regarding the stroke rate, as previously replied, i didnt realize the recovery wasn't supposed to be fast and i dont consciously make an effort to have a high stroke rate. what i mean is, at some point my mind drifts and as i'm mindlessly rowing, the rate creeps up... regarding the "most experienced rowers" bit, i dont get in my mind how that is done? do you slowly pull with your feet back to the catch because i dont recall the chain having any recoil force..

i realized the damper setting isnt displayed which is why i stated it in my OP so i guess for all intents and purposes, telling anyone the damper setting has no importance whatsoever huh...

rowing a marathon is something i plan on doing but i wanted to show the splits as to figure out why their /500m times are so much faster at a slower s/m than mine...

how does one set the damper setting to the DF that one wants? using the bicycle gears analogy, on a if i was on a 3,4 setting, i feel like i'm wasting energy by having a high cadence and not going nearly as fast as i would be going on a 3,6 setting where my cadence is not as high but i'm going very much faster... with my damper setting at 10, i felt like rowing became a bit of a combination of a back endurance and strength workout, whereas damper setting of 5 felt like a really light endurance workout. if my feet werent strapped at damper setting 1 i think i would have thrown myself off the back end lol i was that surprised

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

December 16th, 2018, 3:59 pm

Are you just after advice to slow down your stroke or are you intending on doing a marathon? I have done my fair share of them so I can help if you need it.

seems like you've done two FM rows! awesome

yea my original intent was really on how to get a fast /500m time with a s/m 23 average because it just didnt make sense to me... after all the above replies, it seems like my drive and recovery at the same pace is very wrong because that's what i was doing. i often end up just sitting in the catch position for a second or two because i was told to slow down my s/m and sitting at the catch was, in my mind, the only way i could slow down my s/m lol

mitchel674 wrote: ↑

December 16th, 2018, 5:27 pm

You have a lot to learn. Really the answer to your question is that your current stroke is weak and/or inefficient. Your compensating for this by increasing your stroke rate. Obviously you cannot continue that for the length of a marathon row. You will need to gradually slow down you rate and improve the quality of your stroke.

When I was faced with this dilemma, I spent a month rowing 30 minutes, r20 strapless every day. Rowing without your feet in the straps will force your to use proper technique. It was a maddening but rewarding month. I would suggest you take the time now to analyze your technique rather than building a weak stroke.

technique wise, i'm almost positive i have the drive down as i'm not using my arms to pull until the last portion of the drive. if i was strapless, with the force of my legs, i am pretty sure i would end up throwing myself off the food rest.

unless thats what i meant? because the straps help keep me from flying/falling off at the end of my drive... am i not supposed to exert that much force with my legs?

i get that my s/m is inefficient but to understand why it's inefficent and weak isnt/wasnt clicking but after these responses, i think it's the recovery aspect of it that may be the missing piece...?

Allan Olesen wrote: ↑

December 16th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Regarding waiting at the catch:

1) You probably pulled yourself forward with your feet in the footstraps, right?

2) All the energy you used to accelerate your body forward was wasted... The monitor only sees the energy that you put into the handle.

3) Be really careful at first, so you don't end up on the floor behind the rower. When your feet are not strapped in, you can't brake with your feet at the end of the stroke, and you can't pull yourself forward with your feet. The only way you can pull yourself forward is by pulling the handle.

4) When doing this exercise, you will naturally end up using your arms later in the stroke - as you should - because it is needed to slow your body down at the end of the stroke. And when you do the recovery, you just have to wait for for the seat sliding forward by gravity.

5) You will probably not be able to row strapless at competition pace. But rowing strapless will give you the "feel" for the right stroke, which will also improve your competition stroke so you waste less energy in the footstraps.

Thank you for the long reply! i had to number your post so it'll be easier for me to respond

1) yes that is correct which you very carefully and logically outlined the next train of thoughts so i appreciate it and will respond accordingly
2) i didnt get "sees the energy in the handle" until the last bit of (3) which my mental question was answered at the end of (4), however, i dont understand how gravity will pull forward since we're moving across a lateral plane? i'm currently replying at work but i dont remember the handle pulling me back to the catch position which is why i'm confused by the gravity comment.

are the footstraps not supposed to keep my from falling off the rail from driving so hard with my legs?

jamesg wrote: ↑

December 17th, 2018, 4:38 am

is if someone can explain to me how to achieve something like this

First things to work on are the sequences and length of the stroke. Best length is reached with a recovery using the rowing sequence: arms away, then swing forward, then legs. This puts you into a strong posture which lets you pull a long stroke, very hard, with most of the work done by the legs.

See https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

Rowing with a good stroke is very hard work, so it's best to keep the rating down. This lets us go on for a long time, which is called training when done almost every day.

as with my replies to the previous replies, i have seen the videos and i have the sequence down. even after watching the video again after everyone's reply, it doesn't mention that the recovery phase needs to be slower than the drive, which is what was impressed and communicated to me in these series of replies.

it's the fast /500m per s/m time i didnt understand how to achieve which i think was address by the previous posters...

jackarabit wrote: ↑

December 17th, 2018, 11:02 am

Your stats line indicates that you have done HM, FM, and “ultramarathon” distance. Clearly you have the aerobic fitness and stamina to move your bodyweight back and forth on the slide. But your high rate “spinning” approach is producing on average only 4.4 watts per stroke. At 200 lbs. and assuming your are average hgt. (69”j or greater, I believe you should output on average 6-8 W/s as measured by the flywheel sensor. Get your rate down and your stroke power up. This will be a gradual process of training the stroke (long, fast drive, sloooooow recovery) rather than an intellectual decision which will instantly produce a sub-3’ marathon. All the advice above, especially strapless 20 rate work and a gradual adaptation to a lower workaday, bread ‘n butter rate, is good advice that has worked for thousands of indoor rowers.

thanks for seeing my signature replying as such. maybe i should indicate that those numbers are running and not rowing? or is that already understood lol i'll make notations as such

yes, i am the average height of 5'9" (or 69")

the "sloooow" recovery aspect of it is probably going to be the most challenging as i have no issue with explosiveness in the drive - i'm grateful for the straps to help me from not flying off the rail lol with so many suggestions of going strapless, i wonder if that means i will have to tone down my explosiveness...?

If the straps are keeping you from "flying off the rail" when you are doing normal rate rows, you are doing something wrong. Likely your sequence is off. Watch the videos and practice the individual parts of the rowing stroke. A good finish will keep you in control and on the rower without feeling like you are going to fly off regardless of how much leg power you use in your drive.

A good cadence to think about for a well timed recovery is a 1 second pull and 2 second recovery for your r20 pieces.

The point of rowing with your feet out of the straps is not really to tone down the explosiveness of your leg drive, it's to ensure that you learn how to use that drive in the most effective fashion.

I hate strapless rowing as much as the next guy, but I do think it's useful for body mechanics and keeping the various elements of the drive connected. If you really are flinging yourself backwards on every stroke and then have to reverse that excess momentum every time ... just think how much wasted effort will result over a marathon.

Try it for a few minutes at a time, just as a drill. I never do it for more than 10 or 15 minutes. And, don't worry about your splits -- it's a technique drill, not a race.

Other useful drills:

Row arms only for 10 strokes, then add the back for 10 strokes, then add the legs for 10 -- emphasis on full body coordination
Same drill but start with legs only ...
Pause at the finish of each stroke with the handle at your lowest rib -- do 20 strokes with this 1-second pause to emphasize a clean, powerful finish and a nice slow recovery

Keep watching videos -- not just the somewhat boring Concept2 technique series. Search for world-class rowers doing their best efforts on the ergs and on the water. If you can learn to row like them all your technique issues will be officially behind you.

dailob wrote: ↑

December 17th, 2018, 11:25 am

, however, i dont understand how gravity will pull forward since we're moving across a lateral plane? i'm currently replying at work but i dont remember the handle pulling me back to the catch position which is why i'm confused by the gravity comment.

are the footstraps not supposed to keep my from falling off the rail from driving so hard with my legs?

If you don't think gravity is doing anything, stand up from the rower and look at where the seat will end up. There are no springs in the seat, so it is all gravity.

(Hint: The rail is not horisontal.)

Regarding the handle pulling you back to the catch position: That will probably not happen.

What should happen when you row strapless is:

• You start by making a firm drive with your legs, and then continue by bending a bit backwards in the hip.

• Now your whole body is travelling backwards on the rail. You have spent quite a lot of energy on accelerating your body to that velocity.

• If you now start braking by pulling with your feet, all that energy is just wasted.

• If you instead start braking by pulling with your arms, the braking force will go into the handle where it will count.

• When you reach the end of the drive, the seat should be at rest.

• And since the rail is sloped, you can just sit and wait for gravity to do its work so you end up in the catch position again.

One of the important parts of this exercise is the timing of your arms. You will need the entire movement range of your arms to brake your body. So if you have started bending your arms too early, you will not have enough arm movement left for braking, and you will end up on the floor behind the rower.

dailob wrote: ↑

December 16th, 2018, 12:09 am

the reason for the post, after a long winded intro, is if someone can explain to me how to achieve something like this (a marathon row from the crossfit reddit) https://i.imgur.com/eKNp3pT.jpg in terms of /500m and s/m time...

dailob wrote: ↑

December 17th, 2018, 11:30 am

i am the average height of 5'9" (or 69")

Using an optimal stroke rate is very important for any race, especially a marathon.
I would not use a slow rating, but instead of that just use the rating that feels easiest and most comfortable.
Plus, for a marathon, a slow rate and/or high drag would burn your energy quickly, and a higher rating would help you conserve.

My first marathon, at age 56 and 143 pounds was 2:58, with a drag factor of 77, and 29 to 30 spm.

I agree with John, a high rated FM isn't an issue if that feels comfortable. There's no 'one size fits all' in rowing and I have tried all sorts of speeds, drags and rates, it's too subjective to be prescriptive.