Strength training vs Erging

[mitchel674]

This may be more of a philosophical, but I value the opinions here.

I just finished reading a book on strength training for life after 40 by J. Sullivan. He's a disciple of Rippetoe who founded Starting Strength. The book makes some compelling arguments regarding strength training to increase muscle mass as we age. I'm willing to try and incorporate some of his training strategies, but they make the argument that long, steady distance exercise is counterproductive in this venture.

I've been rowing now seriously for the past year. I've accepted the steady state mantra and routinely row 10-12k pieces as part of my standard workout 4-5 times a week. I've done a HM and had even started training for a FM.

But now I'm not so sure. Should I give up these long pieces and just use erging as a high intensity interval workout a few days a week to compliment a strength training workout?

I'll never be a world class senior rower. I know I could use strength gains, but I've also been impressed with the improvement in my overall fitness over the past year with my dedication to rowing.

Thoughts?

[Gammmmo]

Do what interests you. Imagine what you want to achieve and skew things accordingly. I am somewhat in the same boat (no pun intended). I came over to erging as a skinny 65kg which was fast on a bike but didn't look so great and meant my cardio was always do strong for my body on the erg so often got injured. Fast forward 2.5 years and I'm more like 75kg without putting on a tonne of fat.

Now, as you rightly say doing LSD and weights sends conflicting signals. I've decided I want to pursue the latter for aesthetics and concentrate on shorter ergo stuff. The LSD stuff I have much reduced or I break it up alot more and am much more mindful of protein demands and resynthesis in the body so as time workouts accordingly so interference is kept to a minimum. What's more I recently posted a 10K in 37:38 without killing myself and that's 20s off my PB so that tells you my underlying cardio fitness has maybe only marginally been affected. All in all, I've never felt so good.

[hjs]

Do both!

If you keep aerobic work not to tough there is no problem, if you only do hard long stuff you would kill yourself.

Keeping your muscle mass, certainly after 50 is important, its not needed to lots of strenght work. Few times per week with focus on big movements is enough.

[jamesg]

Should I give up these long pieces and just use erging as a high intensity interval workout a few days a week to compliment a strength training workout?

If anything it's weights that compliments LSD, since the latter can be extremely intense but may not use all muscle groups.

What's your 30/20 distance, if done as a workout?

[Gammmmo]

Should I give up these long pieces and just use erging as a high intensity interval workout a few days a week to compliment a strength training workout?

If anything it's weights that compliments LSD, since the latter can be extremely intense but may not use all muscle groups.

What's your 30/20 distance, if done as a workout?

Not if you want to grow

[G-dub]

Not sure what your goals are. If general fitness and maybe inching up the C2 ladder in the distances...

I would totally do both. And I would keep the Steady State erging to compliment the weight training. No real need to do higher intensity erging if you are ramping up the weight training and not competing. There are some nice programs like Low/ Medium/High (Andy Baker) or Easy Strength or Even Easier Strength (Dan John) that are three days per week. Even two days per week with one day being squats and presses and the other being deadlifts and rows would do wonders. There are lots of good books and the one you mentioned is one. I also liked Tactical Barbell - Conditioning as well as the one that preceded it (It to is appalled Taxtical Barbell but I can’t rememebr if there is another word in the title). The “conditioning” one helps simplify how to put conditioning with weight training and lays out some programs.

[mitchel674]

What's your 30/20 distance, if done as a workout?

I typically row 6800m for my 30/20 pieces.

[mitchel674]

Do both!

If you keep aerobic work not to tough there is no problem, if you only do hard long stuff you would kill yourself.

Keeping your muscle mass, certainly after 50 is important, its not needed to lots of strenght work. Few times per week with focus on big movements is enough.

Henry, this is a helpful perspective. I would like to be able to do both in a complimentary manner. Perhaps I should give up on my desire to row a FM and just focus my rowing on 30-60 minute sessions. These could almost be "rest" days in between my strength training sessions which I could do 2-3 days per week.

[Gammmmo]

@mitchel - if you want to get techy about it (some say "overthink" ) then be mindful of protein synthesis following weights and time your cardio accordingly. Keeping weights and cardio to separate days would therefore be advisable. What I do is a short and hard interval session AM, then do my weights PM, for a particular day. I then do an easy but not long erg the following day early evening and THEN the following day feel more free to do what I want on the erg. If I wanted to do say 20K I'd be more likley to divide it up on that day and re-fuel with some carbs and protein between. Result: slowly making gains with the weights, LSD is still in the ballpark (as above) and am feeling strong for the shorter erg stuff. This may sound like I have covered all bases but in reality even this is still a compromise and will stop me hitting my potential for a particular discipline...you have to work out your priorities. Nothing stopping you from phasing things accordingly but what I will say is give phases a chance to see how you are reacting....

[hjs]

Do both!

If you keep aerobic work not to tough there is no problem, if you only do hard long stuff you would kill yourself.

Keeping your muscle mass, certainly after 50 is important, its not needed to lots of strenght work. Few times per week with focus on big movements is enough.

Henry, this is a helpful perspective. I would like to be able to do both in a complimentary manner. Perhaps I should give up on my desire to row a FM and just focus my rowing on 30-60 minute sessions. These could almost be "rest" days in between my strength training sessions which I could do 2-3 days per week.

You, but even if you want to row a marathon at some time you could. If your goal is not direct a fast time, but more just doing one. From a base of 60 min rows, I think its not overly difficult to build to a full marathon in a few months.
What also helps, if you do longer sessions, no matter what you do burn a lot of energy and loose fluids. Its important to get that in balance as soon as Possible, this helps recovery a lot.
Make a scedule for yourself and see how that goes. You know soon enough if it works for you.

[StrengthCoachWill]

If I'm not mistaken, that book is aimed at recreational trainees, ie. those training for general fitness, quality of life, etc.

I've railed online plenty about the inapplicability of the Starting Strength methodology for rowing. It simply isn't what it was designed for, and it's not a good tool for the job of building better rowers. If your goal is recreational fitness, then by all means, follow whatever lifting program you like and fit whatever aerobic activities you want in around that. That is a healthy way to achieve that goal. If you want to be a better rower, then you need a strength training system with that goal in mind, and takes into account your rowing training, to achieve that goal. Different tools for different jobs.

Yes, there is some interference effect of concurrent training. There are many ways to mitigate the interference effect and train in a way that allows for progress in both strength and aerobic fitness domains, even if it is not "optimal" progress in each. I wrote an article on my website, "5 Keys to Strength Training for Rowing," that was based on a literature review of 89 original research studies in the "Olympic paddle sports" of rowing, canoeing, and kayaking. While these sports are different physically, they're similar physiologically, so as we're looking at physiological signaling re: aerobic, anaerobic, strength, etc. it's appropriate to lump them in. The 5 keys from the research are:

1. Periodize your training. Basically, don't train the same thing all the time. Develop a system that changes and progresses the stimuli you're exposing your body to.

2. Authors found the sweet spot to be 2-3x/wk strength training. "A training volume close to 3-5 sets in 4-6 specific and multi-joint exercises, during 10-12 weeks of training cycles, seems to be an adequate stimulus for an optimal strength development in highly trained rowers and kayakers”

3. Avoid training hypertrophy and aerobic power close together.

4. If you cannot separate your strength training and rowing training sessions by >8 hours, then do your strength training before your rowing training. Less injury risk and your aerobic endurance will suffer less from the fatigue than your strength would if you did rowing before strength training.

5. Avoid training to muscular failure.

With some clarity on your goal and those 5 keys in mind, you can construct a training system around your rowing training to minimize the interference effect and still train effectively.

[jamesg]

I typically row 6800m for my 30/20 pieces.

This is 150 Watt and a 7.5 Watt-minute stroke; so at 162 lb (74 kg) you pull 2 Watt/kg in training, which is enough to keep fit, so well done.

The C2 30' 50-60 LW ranking table for 2018-9 on Page 1 shows distances from 8400 to 7400 m. These are probably all out PBs rather than training and the faster people were perhaps international scullers: 8400 at 20 is 285 Watts with a 14 Watt stroke.

7500m would be 200 W, so a 10 Watt stroke at 20. This should be well within reach at your height, if you use standard rowing technique, without pulling particularly hard. Stroke length and sequences on the other hand could be critical, to ensure full leg application.

I'd start with technique, since this can be done now and will let you use your existing strength and endurance immediately.

There is no point in increasing strength if your technique does not let you use it.

[G-dub]

Strength Coach Will - sorry for not mentioning your book in my reply too! It’s well done and with your web site outlines a complete yearly program for competitive Masters Rowers, one that I probably need to follow.

[StrengthCoachWill]

Strength Coach Will - sorry for not mentioning your book in my reply too! It’s well done and with your web site outlines a complete yearly program for competitive Masters Rowers, one that I probably need to follow.

G-dub: No worries, I don't expect to be in the same conversation as Dan John just yet. Thanks though. I am working to put more masters content up, and threads like this help me see the need and what questions actual athletes have.

I'm not sure what the rules for linking/self-promotion here are, but the article G-dub is referring to here is "Strength Training for Masters Rowers: Periodization," in which I lay out an annual template for strength training following the block periodization system of program design.

[mitchel674]

I typically row 6800m for my 30/20 pieces.

This is 150 Watt and a 7.5 Watt-minute stroke; so at 162 lb (74 kg) you pull 2 Watt/kg in training, which is enough to keep fit, so well done.

The C2 30' 50-60 LW ranking table for 2018-9 on Page 1 shows distances from 8400 to 7400 m. These are probably all out PBs rather than training and the faster people were perhaps international scullers: 8400 at 20 is 285 Watts with a 14 Watt stroke.

7500m would be 200 W, so a 10 Watt stroke at 20. This should be well within reach at your height, if you use standard rowing technique, without pulling particularly hard. Stroke length and sequences on the other hand could be critical, to ensure full leg application.

I'd start with technique, since this can be done now and will let you use your existing strength and endurance immediately.

There is no point in increasing strength if your technique does not let you use it.

Thank you for that analysis. I've often wondered why my stroke is relatively weak. One day I will get around to posting a video for some suggestions.