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Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 10:19 am
by mdpfirrman
I'm not new to rowing but had never been much of an endurance athlete growing up. I tried to jog in my 40s before finding rowing but could never really get up very high in miles before breaking down (around 25 miles a week tops).
Since finding rowing, I've been able to gradually build up my endurance (and meters) to the point where I'm doing around 60K a week (or more) now on average this year (the most I've ever done).
I've added in a long day on Sunday. I row 10K meters to 12K meters, then drink some Orange Juice (perhaps eat a banana), then lift, add in another 45 to 50 minutes or so more at the gym in cardio on a Stairmaster (usually do around 100 floors, not too fast) and maybe 5 or 6 miles on the bike (if anything is left I might add in some more rowing too, but very easy). The entire workout takes around 2 1/2 hours.
My question is, while I feel pretty decent the day (at the time) of doing this workout, I'm completely drained the next day when I do my SS work (12K on Monday - 2 X 6000/3'). I've only been doing this Sunday workout this long around 5 or 6 weeks now. Is this common to feel this drained the next day? Is it (perhaps) because I'm not getting enough calories in around my workout? Or will I perhaps get used to it? Also, is the long day even necessary (I wanted to try it for a while to see how much I can build up my aerobic endurance, which seems my weakest part of the equation)?
Yesterday when I did my SS work, the first 6K went well. Last 6K was hell getting through. Just think I was still feeling the after effects from Sunday's long day?
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 10:46 am
by bisqeet
not sure i would say calories, but nutrition definetly. need to replenish those energy depots
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 11:02 am
by jbhop5857
Well,
All you PB's are better than mine and I am 38, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I am rowing about 70k a week right now. The PB's will fall (i hope) and have found a couple things have helped to recover.
1. Lower carbs and higher protein and fat after the workout.
2. Active recovery
3. Branch Chain Amino Acids seem to be helping as well. I have read this will help even more the older you get. I take 6g before and 6g after.
4. Sleep, but nobody really gets enough.
Good luck and have fun. Let me know if you find something else that works great.
David
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 12:40 pm
by lwtguy
Have you considered doing your long day before your day off? Any kind of volume that's out of the ordinary will make you tired the next day, no matter how much you eat/rest for the remainder of that day.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 12:55 pm
by G-dub
If I remember right you aren't much of a carb eater. 2.5 hours is long enough to use those up - especially if you aren’t eating any to begin with. Having weight training in the middle of the session doesn’t help the energy stores either, I wouldn’t think. The weights in the middle seem like a weird idea for several reasons actually!
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 1:05 pm
by Dangerscouse
Mike, it gets easier with time. I did a 55km session on Sunday and then a very intense hot Pilates session last night and 16km this morning. It wasn't long ago that I couldn't have done all of that without feeling drained.
It's a fairly slow process but make sure that you eat plenty of carbs; high GI straight after exercise and low GI for other meals i have found this a big help.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 1:50 pm
by mdpfirrman
Thanks all. Yeah, when I write down my thoughts, sometimes it looks not to make sense.
Glenn -- You're right. Lifting in between two longish cardio sessions is probably not ideal. I do it because of the Mrs. She likes to go to the gym on Sunday (the only day we get there now that I have a rower). She only likes to workout for around 50 minutes and then 20 in the sauna. Their rower is garbage there (broken down C2 that they won't maintain). So I lift there instead of rowing and row before. Although I guess I could do only cardio that day (and move my lift to Saturday, which would take away my off day). The other reason I do it on Sunday is all my other workouts are limited to lunch time (one hour), so it limits my ability to lift and row on certain days. This is the one day I get to take my time on my lift, which is nice.
Bill - I have been thinking of that. I think if I did a row on Saturday (my current off day) and then this on Sunday and took Monday off, it might solve my issue. I just like my Saturdays off. We do a lot of running around/chores that day and I walk my dogs around 4 miles too that day. Would make for a lot to get done that day.
Dean - nutrition is decent, not great. As to Glenn's question, too, I'm eating more carbs these days. Mostly healthy stuff. The wife and I are leaning mostly Vegan (and Gluten free) these days (I do take supplements and eat Organic Eggs, Chicken and Salmon a few days a week, so the Iron, Zinc and B Vitamins should be addressed plus I supplement pretty well). Helps with her Fibromyalgia. Try to get in simple carbs right around the workout (maybe not enough) and then protein (and fat) afterward with some more carbs. Mostly fruit, juice and protein drinks around the workout but I put PB in the Vegan protein powder/milk and a banana or two as well.
@ David - I do take BCAA but not consistent enough and usually only one. I probably should take two around this workout. I get decent sleep (as much as my dogs will allow) -- around 8 hours a night. I'm pretty protective of that. Thanks for the reminders. Kudos to you doing 70K! I think I've only hit that once or twice so far!
@ Dangerscouse/Stu - I think that's part of it. Just not being used to the meters and the long day. I'm hoping I will adjust. One thing that I haven't been doing (and this might help) is to carry around a Gaterade or something similar while I'm working out to get the sugar in me as I go. I hate carrying things around in the gym (when I'm lifting). Perhaps just a simple change like that, carrying around a supplement drink while I'm doing the time at the gym (for the 90 minutes there) might help. I've worked out before forgetting the large OJ after the row and felt a HUGE difference for the duration of the workout. Now, it's been more the days following (today was rough a bit too).
Thanks for the ideas. I appreciate them. Sometimes I have to talk through my plan and writing it down sometimes helps me see what is obvious to you guys as well.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 2:15 pm
by jackarabit
Hey Mike. 60k per week should allow for a rest day. Maybe that rest day should fall on Mondays? Not knocking glycogen-restoring carbs or cell-building protein or amino acid supplementation of course.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 2:25 pm
by Dangerscouse
You're welcome Mike.
I'd steer clear of the usual sports drinks too much rubbish in there that you don't need. Make your own if you say it helps i.e 50/50 OJ and water with a teaspoon of sugar and half a teaspoon of salt (if you sweat a lot). I have read that the glucose helps break down the fructose quicker.
Sounds like your diet is really good already so hopefully it is more about slowly adapting. Maybe lower the intensity of the rows and see how you feel? Since slowing down my rows (i used to row 1:48-1:52 and now usually go 1:57-2:02ish) and despite significantly increasing the distance I feel less tired later on in the day and the next day too.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 4:04 pm
by mdpfirrman
jackarabit wrote:Hey Mike. 60k per week should allow for a rest day. Maybe that rest day should fall on Mondays? Not knocking glycogen-restoring carbs or cell-building protein or amino acid supplementation of course.
Yeah Jack. I'm leaning that way. Just have to convince the boss!
Thanks!
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 24th, 2017, 4:14 pm
by mdpfirrman
Dangerscouse wrote:You're welcome Mike.
I'd steer clear of the usual sports drinks too much rubbish in there that you don't need. Make your own if you say it helps i.e 50/50 OJ and water with a teaspoon of sugar and half a teaspoon of salt (if you sweat a lot). I have read that the glucose helps break down the fructose quicker.
Sounds like your diet is really good already so hopefully it is more about slowly adapting. Maybe lower the intensity of the rows and see how you feel? Since slowing down my rows (i used to row 1:48-1:52 and now usually go 1:57-2:02ish) and despite significantly increasing the distance I feel less tired later on in the day and the next day too.
I actually do have my homemade concoction of that too. I have magnesium, calcium, sea salt and potassium all in powder form in a container mixed together with dehydrated coconut water. I used to do that more often after getting migraines a couple of times. It might be that simple too that I'm just not getting the right minerals in. Been too lazy to make it up. It even tastes good with some lime juice and sugar (or black strap molasses). Good suggestion as well, thanks!
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 25th, 2017, 12:58 am
by jamesg
I'm completely drained the next day
Typical overwork; what does your rest HR say? A day's rest, a day doing some short and nasty with far less work in it than any of your LSS (or LFS) stuff will sort you. Possibly no lifting, which is usually said to need 2-3 days recovery.
Of course we must propitiate the gods of rowing by sacrificing plenty of blood sweat and tears. However we only have so much of these. The Greeks also sacrificed plenty of goats, cattle and sheep, which of course they ate after roasting them. Grapes probably helped propitiate too. Ulysses tells us they were every good oarsmen, rowing their ships all over the Med.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 25th, 2017, 2:52 am
by bisqeet
Hi Mike,
same here. The eldest daughter has been vegan for two years now.
both my wife and I suffer from sport injuries - her knees from years of national level volleyball, mine i blame for jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes whilst carrying warddrobes from ikea (at least thats what it felt like) and sports. Officially i'm 30% disabled due to spondylarthrose and arthritis in the knees...
I tried injections and the usual, but still have pain in the knees, which according to the orthopedics will only be better once i have my knees replaced.
After a friend reccomended the arthritis diet (GAT), we decided to give it a go.
vegan based, just basic nutritional on a 80/20 ph Alkali/Acid content.
i must admit to having less pain (it didn't really bother me, and it definetly didint stop me training), also no putbacks after longer rows...
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 25th, 2017, 10:44 am
by strider
I have an Exercise Physiology text that is about 10 years old. On the subject of general diet for exercise endurance, the authors cite a study from 1968 that was extremely well done, and documented, so they report. So much so that they cite it as still definitive. According to this textbook, for best endurance, the standard diet needs to be about 80% complex carbs, everyday. The endurance provided was more than double a balanced diet, triple a diet with half energy from fats. In switching the non-high carb athletes to high carb, athletes endurance improved week by week, for four weeks straight, no other change to their training, where prior to that it had stagnated, with no improvement on the high fat. The balanced diet helped the athletes improve slowly, but puny in comparison to the high carb diet.
For more information on the study, I will refer you to the text, or the study online if it can be found in PubMed.
As for the amount of exercise on the long day, and insufficient recovery time showing itself the following day, try looking into exercise watch/computers that provide Training Effect. That Sunday workout likely hits a max T.E. of 5.0, to which the guides recommend 2-3 days rest for full recovery.
In my cardiac rehabilitation after blockages had me down to about 4% normal cardiac flow, I found steady upward cardiac drift late in an aerobic workout to be a precursor of fatigue. Work too long with it, and fatigue turned into a big hammer. By working with the drift, and avoiding fatigue, I built up my max exercise heart rate to 20 beats over my calculated max, and became well enough recovered to do anything reasonable. But I still use the monitor to check for approaching fatigue. I was content to limit erg workouts to no more than 80 minutes a session.
Re: Long Day Rows / Long Steady State Aftereffects
Posted: October 25th, 2017, 12:24 pm
by Dangerscouse
Very interesting Strider. Thanks for that. I didn't realise I needed so much complex carbs and every day too