Concept2 Forum

Background: I'm an overweight 37yo who's rowed on and off for 5 years. Previously I'd weight lifted so I'm reasonably strong with a 180kg deadlift. Initially every row was a time trial and consequently I found myself dreading them and giving up. For years I tried to beat 20min for 5k and eventually did with none optimal training. Then I found this place a few years back and learned about intervals, long slow rows and such. I didn't realise long slow rows would improve me but later I added those and was surprised that after 2 or 3 I could improve my 10k time trial PB. So long slow rows seem to improve me more than any interval work I've done, probably because my aerobic capacity is so poor. The long rows got easier and PR attempts seemed easier too. Eventually I managed a sub 40 10k averaging 1:59.9 but then I didn't row hardly for a year and I managed a 1:55.9 5k but think I could have gone faster at 5k. But then after hitting a long time goal of the sub 40 I gave up for 9 months, I'd got injured and then got distracted with family/business.

I want to row continously so I'm progressing and not simply 'getting back to what I was'. My 10k seasons best after a month back is a 2:01.9 500m/average although I started the first 4k in about a 2:06.0 average (it was definitely around (2:05 at 5000 and probably as high as 2:08 earlier on) so I'm probably close to 2:00 for the 10k already. So far I've only been doing long slow rows and max long rows, my seasons best started as a low slow row while practising started 'swinging my hips', which I read about on this forum, here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159894&p=415417&hilit=hips#p415417

Suddenly I was generating much more power from my legs/hips and I managed to do the seasons best after getting into the zone.

I saw different definitions of a long slow row. Some people use heart rate monitors (I don't have one). Some say 10-20 seconds over 2k PR Pace or 10 seconds over 10k PR pace - well that would be 2:11 for an unfit guy like me, which is hard for 10k. Now what if I extend these long slow rows to 12k or 15k? Recently I've done 15k rows in 2:16 or slower, so 5 seconds slower than that but my buttucks would feel like they were cramping up after 11k onwards, which I've noticed in the past in distances over 10k. I also really want to give up when it goes over 10k if I'm honest. I believe 15k rows seem to yield better results than 10ks in improving my 10k time. So what should the pace be for a 15k?

I've read some people saying 2 breaths per stroke/recovery and 'conversation is possible'. Well I'm unfit and panting hard at 2:16 as the session progresses.

Thanks for any answers, I plan on updating this thread as an extra motivation to stay on the rower. I currently am suffering from gout so took a few days off but managed intervals of 2k, 2k and 1k at 1:56 pace, which was a fresh change from the long slow rows. I wanted to do 4x2k but it was quite late and I was tired. Tonight I'll attempt a 15k...hopefully it's easier. I also have re-occuring knee and achilles injuries that sideline me at times.

As for goals, I know if I do plenty of milage I'll improve. I think I can do a sub 40 10k with a few more slow 15k rows under my belt. My next big goal is a sub 19min 5k so 1:54 average and I imagine I'll need to get my 10k down to 1:59 or lower to do this.

Others more knowledgable than me will answer your questions. But I just wanted to say good for you for getting back on it, and everyone here will support you and look forward to watching your progress.

Its a matter of energy systems, we have aerobic and a anaerobic system, aerobic will not produce lactic acid, anaerobic will.
Simply put, as long as breathing stays calm, almost all energy comes from aerobic sources, the moment breathing gets more laboured this shiftes to more anaerobic. If we go all out, which is over within a minute its almost only anaerobic.

Pacing wise, think 2k pace plus 20/25 seconds, this is not really slow, but after a while doable for longer rows.
A longer easy row, should not be raced, its about building the capacity to proces oxigion, training this goes relative slowly.
The anaerobic system, can be trained faster, but also plateau s pretty soon. So if you keep hamering yourself, progress will soon stall.

Your question is really one about intensity. Long and slow doesn't necessarily mean you're merely paddling along. Rating needs to be taken into consideration as well as duration and pace. Training plans typically suggest ratings of 18-22 strokes/minute or so for long, continuous pieces intended to improve baseline aerobic capacity. This is to allow you to work reasonably hard on the drive portions of your strokes, which stay relatively constant regardless of rating, and to use the comparatively prolonged in-stroke recoveries to mitigate the effects of the hard contractions. By way of example: assume for purposes of argument a constant drive duration of 0.6 seconds. At 30 strokes/minute, the drive is 0.6 seconds and the recovery 1.4 seconds. At 20 strokes a minute, the drive is still 0.6 seconds but the recovery is now 2.4 seconds. The extra recovery allows you to push hard on the drive for many, many more strokes than you otherwise would be able to do without tapping aerobic pathways.

It's true that if you hold grunt constant, you'll go slower at lower ratings. But the pace is sort of beside the point. As Henry suggests, the idea is to build your aerobic foundation. The faster and farther you can go without producing debilitating metabolic byproducts, the less training time you need to spend on dealing with them. There's also a technique issue involved: it's easier to fix things at lower ratings than at higher ones. This is especially true for OTW rowers who need to work on controlling/synchronizing their slides during their recoveries.

Andy, as well as the other advice you will get re: stroke rates I'd buy a heart rate monitor if you can afford it (£30 on Amazon for a Beurer is a good cheap option) and try and aim for a HR of circa 130-140. That should give you a relatively strenuous session but still keep within aerobic levels (AKA UT2) which will help with weight loss and general fitness. There is also not much substitute for just digging deep and rowing through the pain when your head is telling you to stop.

The soreness is just a matter of getting used to it or you can buy some memory foam and put it in a pillow case. The Foam Shop is a great place to look if you live in UK. Cheap and will size it to order or you can buy off cuts. Just buy 0.5kg If you do; I bought 3kg and had way too much.

Best of luck and good on ya for persevering

Consider rowing without looking at the monitor (after you have settled into a rhythm at desired pace).
In earlier times I used to pass the time thinking about bike rides (on marathon sized rows). I got pretty good at it
(in that the time rowed was not far off the times at key locations on the bike).
Now I think about jogs, where I am etc.

Counting strokes also helps. E.g. I set myself a goal of 10 cycles of 24 strokes on, as long as possible off, where "off" is only very slightly
easier than "on". You extend the off portion but of course you need keep in mind that you have to get through with 10 cycles.

At your age and fitness level you should build up to 90 mins for such rows. It is definitely within reach.

Dangerscouse wrote: I'd buy a heart rate monitor

Andy,

Great work on starting out. Listen to Dangerscouse. Buy a heart rate monitor.
Listen to H2) - cover the monitor (or partially cover so you can see rate and time but not split).
Buy some bluetooth earbuds.
I've just gotten back into it after 20 years away from the damn machine.
As everybody else will suggest
- You want your heart rate to be in the 125-140 range
- Find a rate that works for you, but don't go too slow (20ish)
- mix things up by breaking down the time into different chunks - 2 min at 20, 2min at 22, 2 min at 24, 2 min at 20 etc
- think of it as climbing little hills then coming back down the other side
- you need 45min 3x a week min
- no substitute for time - having said that rowing is the most efficient to get work in
- use a foam roller for 2min afterwards - greatly reduces muscle pain

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm beggining to realise 25 seconds plus 2k pace (which I'm assuming is ), I think starting slightly slower and building up more pace as I go on suits me mentally better for long rows. I simply can't maintain ultra low 18-20 spm at this pace though, it starts at that rate and goes upto 22, then 24 and maybe even higher.

This week has been poor training wise. It started well when I rowed my longest ever row of 16k, I think in around 2:13. Despite it not being all out my body paid for it. From my hips to my knees to my back to my achilles injury. Muscle acheyness I'm fine 0with but joints don't tend to end well for me. Anyway I attempted 2 more long rows but quit after 6k and 7k....I decided I needed a timetrial to give me some adrenaline and pick me up, so I went for a 5k and managed a PB down from 1:55.9 2 years ago to 1:55.1 today, which translates to 19:11. In 2-3 weeks I'm planning sub 19 minutes, but will aim to do a sub-40min 10k before that, hopefully beating 1:59.9.

TLDR PR for 5k of 1:55.1 ave/500m, so 19:11, but a poor training week overall and that was a weak PR, which I could of beat last year. I was rating from 24-28. I'm aiming for more long rows, maybe limit it to 10ks in order to get used to it day on day.

If you up the rating to keep on pace you simply row to fast, the strokes gets weaker and weaker if you do so.

changes according to mood...
for me a long slow is something i could do all day - somewhere at about 70-80% HRR

R18 - 2:07 is my current slow and steady pace / usually somewhere between 20 and 30k - anythng over FM is with rests - usually just to stretch the legs etc.

pace wise thats about 12 strokes/minute less and about 27s off 2k pace - but its a pace could keep up for a long time (record was 70km at that pace).

i would guess that pace is about 80% of my workouts...