Concept2 Forum

I'm going at a 2:30 pace at 20 spm. I'm untrained and this is somewhat high perceived exertion, and would be close to max effort for 2K. DF is 108. Force curve tends to be a single hill skewed to the left. I can take some video of the force curves if that's helpful in diagnosing things.

I have very poor hamstring flexibility (working on it), which limits how far I can come up on the slide while still maintaining a decent catch position. Any farther forward and my butt tucks under. The video makes it clear to me how much stroke length I lose because I cannot come farther up the slide.

Any observations or suggestions are welcome, thanks.

Not a bad 4'. Very steady on rate 20 and a consistent 1:2.5 ratio drive to recovery thruout.

Very open catch position: shins short of vertical, armpits behnd knees, handle barely even with toes-- most of us think of that as 3/4 slide. You aren't reaching full slide which restricts length of drive. I'm not quite convinced that's down to tight hams and glutes. I think combo of long shins and high foot position is acting as a preventer to closing the included angle between shins and thghs and between body and thighs. Experiment with dropping the heel cups one or more holes. Shoot another vid and review to see for yourself if you are able to come further aft (toward the chain gate) and produce more body lean into the catch.

You break the elbows and engage the shoulder retractors (posterior delts, rhomboids, trapezius) too aggressively and too early imo but that's the big contributor making the early peak force curve possible at this time. You might experiment with straitarming the handle longer while the iegs extend and the back opening takes the chain slack. I guess what I'm trying to say is retain the mental picture of force plus speed of attack from catch position (particularly in reference to leg drive) but lose the jerking muscle engagement in arms and shoulders.

Something wonky about the chain path immediately after catch. I think here again early elbow flexure is almost creating interference with your knees. Pretty subtle. Someone else can have a look. One clue is the freeze on the final frame of the vid. Looks to me that the knees have not broken and cleared the straitline chain path from mid-chain gate to elevation of lats. and hands lifting the handle to avoid collision.

Intelligent regulation in terms of drive and recovery time but some sequencing problems that need to be addressed rather than drilled in too deep to root out. Your 3 erg sessions, 3 wgts. weekly will serve you well.

Clearly the small hip and knee rotation angles limit the amount of work done by the legs. Maybe all four MT units need stretching. The rowing action helps in this.

In the meantime as a very LW (H, W; ?), 100W at 20 is enough to maintain fitness, if you do enough mileage. Higher drag would shorten the catch a little, if you want to rate higher, to help do more work per stroke. Lower feet would put your shoulders further forward, also helping length. Loosen up too, rowing's hard enough as it is, there's no point in using antagonists. Gravity and inertia can do almost everything for us; except pull the chain.

Why the half strokes? The seat should travel a lot further forward, shins vertical, heal lifted from the footrest, and back foward close the legs. Nothing more to say, this has very little to do with a full stroke. You are limiting your rang of motion very much.

Agree with others on the short stroke - I'm probably doing it wrong myself, but I find the seat sometimes hitting my heels and the handle almost hitting the chain gate. There's a bit of chain bouncing which is not great - imagine the chain gate is instead a small hole and on the stroke try to keep this point where the chain emerges from the gate as a fixed point.

Overall though it's pretty smooth and the sequence of legs-arms-arms-legs is right, unlike most people who go to my gym.

Try this to get that hip hinge/pelvic tilt going. Back stops drill from former C2 demonstrator, Terry Smythe. One of my favorites:

https://vimeo.com/42020051

hjs wrote:Why the half strokes? The seat should travel a lot further forward, shins vertical, heal lifted from the footrest, and back foward close the legs. Nothing more to say, this has very little to do with a full stroke. You are limiting your rang of motion very much.

Yeah... almost like he's doing some sort of training drill.

The legs play the most significant part, so limiting range of motion with them in the stroke will massively affect progression gains and overall performance.

Jerg, as the others have alluded to; this looks like a half slide drill. I don't think you could possibly be this inflexible. The only two things that (IMO) can cause this are extremely high foot stretchers (lots of holes showing) or you are attempting to row with the heels in constant contact with the foot boards. Virtually nobody is capable of rowing properly with their heels down at the catch.

Thanks for all the feedback. I will try to incorporate the suggestions into my technique. Let me see if I can address some of the questions.

The video and uniformity of comments makes it clear to me that I need to figure out a way to get farther up the slide. I'm going to use the video to determine where I'm getting to now and mark it with some tape. And then I'll be able to track if changes in technique or improvements in flexibility are translating to a longer stroke.

jackarabit wrote:You aren't reaching full slide which restricts length of drive. I'm not quite convinced that's down to tight hams and glutes. I think combo of long shins and high foot position is acting as a preventer to closing the included angle between shins and thghs and between body and thighs. Experiment with dropping the heel cups one or more holes. Shoot another vid and review to see for yourself if you are able to come further aft (toward the chain gate) and produce more body lean into the catch.

Footstrechers are at the penultimate position, but I'll try dropping down to the final notch and see if that makes a difference.

I'll try out the pick drill that you posted. I am familiar with hip hinging but it feels like my hamstrings (or posterior chain in general) really limit me. I run into a similar issue in setting up for the deadlift.

jackarabit wrote: You break the elbows and engage the shoulder retractors (posterior delts, rhomboids, trapezius) too aggressively and too early imo but that's the big contributor making the early peak force curve possible at this time. You might experiment with straitarming the handle longer while the iegs extend and the back opening takes the chain slack. I guess what I'm trying to say is retain the mental picture of force plus speed of attack from catch position (particularly in reference to leg drive) but lose the jerking muscle engagement in arms and shoulders.

Something wonky about the chain path immediately after catch. I think here again early elbow flexure is almost creating interference with your knees. Pretty subtle. Someone else can have a look. One clue is the freeze on the final frame of the vid. Looks to me that the knees have not broken and cleared the straitline chain path from mid-chain gate to elevation of lats. and hands lifting the handle to avoid collision.

Thanks for catching this. I could feel there was a very jerky element to my motion, but couldn't put my finger on it and I chalked it up to pushing off violently enough to catch up to the flywheel right away. But after reading your comment and watching the video in slow motion, it does appear I am jerking the handle and it does look like I'm lifting the handle to avoid hitting my knees.

jamesg wrote:Higher drag would shorten the catch a little, if you want to rate higher, to help do more work per stroke.

I can see how higher drag would 'shorten' the catch, but it seems that it would slow down the spm as there is more resistance to flywheel acceleration. Am I thinking about this wrong?

jamesg wrote: Loosen up too, rowing's hard enough as it is, there's no point in using antagonists. Gravity and inertia can do almost everything for us; except pull the chain.

I'm not following. Can you please elaborate?

Edward4492 wrote:Jerg, as the others have alluded to; this looks like a half slide drill. I don't think you could possibly be this inflexible. The only two things that (IMO) can cause this are extremely high foot stretchers (lots of holes showing) or you are attempting to row with the heels in constant contact with the foot boards. Virtually nobody is capable of rowing properly with their heels down at the catch.

Foot stretchers are one notch from lowest setting, and I'm not trying to keep heels in constant contact (they do come up very slightly). Rather it's just a function of not moving far forward enough to require much heel lift. Which I clearly need to figure out how to do while maintaining a good back position (i.e., not letting my butt tuck under at the catch).

Get your heals up at tye catch, this will "cure" 90% of your inflexibility. As stated, almost nobody is able to keep the feet flat at the catch. Ankles don,t allow this.

Edward4492 wrote:Jerg, as the others have alluded to; this looks like a half slide drill. I don't think you could possibly be this inflexible. The only two things that (IMO) can cause this are extremely high foot stretchers (lots of holes showing) or you are attempting to row with the heels in constant contact with the foot boards. Virtually nobody is capable of rowing properly with their heels down at the catch.

Was just practicing, and I have to retract my earlier comment. While I wasn't consciously doing it, I was for whatever reason keeping my heels mostly down, so you were correct.

hjs wrote:Get your heals up at tye catch, this will "cure" 90% of your inflexibility. As stated, almost nobody is able to keep the feet flat at the catch. Ankles don,t allow this.

Started working on this at very low effort, and I am getting farther up the slide. It's a bit more challenging to keep my torso angled forward as I compress to the point that my heels lift off, but I think I can work on this in terms of motor control and flexibility.

You seem to overthink it a bit. Can you squat down and sit on your heals? If so you can make a full stroke. Given the way you look and move I can,t imagion you can,t.
Making a full stroke needs not full pressure, going to slow makes it only more difficult btw.

hjs wrote:Can you squat down and sit on your heals?

Nope. But that does jog my memory about a mobility drill I used a while back to improve knee flexion. I need to find that and start performing it regularly.

Jerg, I think James' advice re: "antagonists" references opposing pairs of muscles such as the quads and hams. Do you find you are using leg muscle to retard your progress down the slide upon recovery? Save your strength; the slide is designed with a slight decline towards the fan housing (the gravitational component) and the chain retract cord has a small towmotor effect on your mass thru the handle. Hands away and body swing after finish also play an important role in initiating reversal of direction of movement of the total body mass.

jackarabit wrote:Jerg, I think James' advice re: "antagonists" references opposing pairs of muscles such as the quads and hams. Do you find you are using leg muscle to retard your progress down the slide upon recovery?

I hadn't paid any attention to that, but I will next go.

jackarabit wrote:Save your strength; the slide is designed with a slight decline towards the fan housing (the gravitational component) and the chain retract cord has a small towmotor effect on your mass thru the handle. Hands away and body swing after finish also play an important role in initiating reversal of direction of movement of the total body mass.

Did 15min at a somewhat relaxed pace with a longer stroke to start greasing the groove, and one thing I noticed is that if I get my hands away quickly, it's easier to tilt my pelvis forward. The arms shooting forward seems to help 'drag' the pelvis forward, while if I move hands away less quickly, it seems like more muscular effort is required and even then I don't get quite as much pelvic rockover as I do when I move hands away quickly.

Is this common?