Concept2 Forum

Assume there is no aerobic training effect running unless one does more than 20 minute of jogging.
ie: A training effect starts to occur after the 20 minute mark, (assuming 3 times a week).

This is generally accepted but of course I will be shot down in flames as this could be debated for hours .
Hopefully this thread will assume my generalization is not unreasonable and wont go off topic.

I have deliberately not specified age,sex,proficiency, intensity, terrain ,temperatures weight,distances or sprinting
because I would like a general fairly simple response to my question.

My question-without going into doctoral arguments on Human physiology.
Is there a general similar guide for minimum time for rowing to improve aerobic capacity,specifically VO2 max?

Based on the above I row hard for 30 minutes to make sure I get a training effect.
My HR is between 85% and 100 % of suggested HR maximum(220-age),
for around 20 min of the 30 min of rowing .
Thanks in advance

After that 20 minutes warm up, it's all good. This is my theory, based on the idea that training serves to improve waste clearance, so waste has to be there before the systems have any need to adapt.

Whether there's any effect on VO2 , I've no idea. Can it change?

jamesg wrote:After that 20 minutes warm up, it's all good. This is my theory, based on the idea that training serves to improve waste clearance, so waste has to be there before the systems have any need to adapt.

Whether there's any effect on VO2 , I've no idea. Can it change?

Pure aerobe training does not produce waste products, so there is nothing to clear. Production of waste means anaerobic involvement. Aerobic system can perfectly be trained purely aerobic. This is the basis of polarized training. Most easy, the rest very hard, not much inbetween.

Those studies that have elicited the greatest improvements in VO2max have usually employed intervals and continuous training. It's probable that the intervals are doing the greater part of the work. The fitter the individual the truer this likely becomes. The elite need to work very, very hard to see tiny improvements in VO2max.

The famous Hickson study - 44% increase in V02max - had the subjects run 6 days a week alternating between 6x5min (2min rest) and hard 40 min runs. For 10 weeks. That's bonkers in terms of the effort required. (Those initially untrained folk chose not to continue the training when offered the opportunity ).

The cardiopulmonary response to rowing differs very little from its response to running. What's true for running is true for rowing. Therefore, hard middle/long distance pieces and intervals (4x4min/ 4x5mins/ 5x5 mins (2 min rest), that sort of thing) will be very helpful. V02 max can been improved with shorter intervals still: very short, intense sessions lasting, in total, a handful of minutes - think Tabata - but results will not be optimal. If you have but 20 mins the distance piece and intervals done within that time will need to be very hard. 10mins? Harder still. (All this said, it follows that if you seek only the benefits that might accrue from 20mins jogging then 20 mins moderate rowing is a happy equivalent).

As it's not especially stressful on the joints etc rowers can, as a general rule, push more volume than runners. If you have the time, or can do more than 3x/week, long and steady, entirely aerobic pieces (45mins + , 'SS'or 'UT2' hereabouts) will likely gently nudge V02max along and should, over time, significantly shift the lactate threshold (if that is of interest).

no - any exercise will improve or help maintain fitness depending on the existing fitness of the person in question and the intensity of the exercise.

A full on 10 min effort is already mostly aerobic.
Even an all out 2K is predominantly aerobic.
You get very large aerobic benefits from doing these.

I get the most out of what the UK 2K plan calls transport sessions,
even for times on longer rows like 10K.

VO2 max: if you are close to 2k race shape: 1 x 1700m,
not close to race shape: 2-3 x 1500, full recovery.
You need to be whacked. You will hit maximum oxygen uptake within 3 min.
When I do these my heart rate is 10 beats lower the next day.

Drawback: you can't do those all the time.

30 min hard rows is not the most efficient for VO2 max training and may
not be ideal for anything.

I am doing a 30 min session as I am unfit and want to build an aerobic base before going into some series type of training.
For running it is often suggested to do long runs to get that base. Also I am a sprinter not a long distance person so I used to struggle with running more than 5k, with 10 k my max distance.

Rowing is great as it seems joint stress, free.

My initial goal was weight loss but I seem to be too competitive for my own good
and end up putting in intense efforts ( well they seem damn intense to me lol)

It would seem to me full on 10 min would be building a lot of lactate along with the aerobic component which is not much.(IMO)

Also had a hip replacement which has prevented me from running for 14 years so apart from cycling which doesn't get my HR up I need to build up to things.
Very New to rowing(3 weeks ) so I do 5500 to 6000m in 30 min which I understand is quite poor for age 62. HR is between 148 and 158 at end of 30 minutes.

Thanks for staying on topic . I am enthusiastically digesting everyone comments as I just don't have any physiology knowledge about rowing.

Observations from personal experience are every valid.
look fwd to more comments.
Thanks in advance

ggumpshots wrote:
It would seem to me full on 10 min would be building a lot of lactate along with the aerobic component which is not much.(IMO)

10 mins all out work would be around 85% aerobic. And, you're right, lactate would accumulate.
To significantly increase your VO2max you have to work the oxygen deliver system hard. This means working quite a bit beyond the lactate threshold.

Given that you are new to this activity, my bet is that building your endurance, technique and "muscles" will happen in due time. Good steady high aerobic rowing at 20',30',40' that enables you to improve the above will take you pretty far until it plateaus. I may not be on topic.

20 minutes of running can produce outstanding stimulus for world class middle distance runner or be nothing more than a getting off the couch waddle for a someone just starting to exercise. It all depends on how you structure the workout with regard to intensity and rest intervals. I suspect the same is true with regard to time on the erg. You can float through 20 minutes of easy pulls and get a nice sweat up at one end of the spectrum or you can do several moderate to high intensity intervals at the other end of the spectrum.

For me, rowing generally feels like a higher intensity activity than running. I am thinking about 1 hour of running = 40 min of rowing. For comparison, that same hour of running for me relates to about 2.5 hours of cycling.

Oldcolonial wrote:20 minutes of running can produce outstanding stimulus for world class middle distance runner or be nothing more than a getting off the couch waddle for a someone just starting to exercise. It all depends on how you structure the workout with regard to intensity and rest intervals. I suspect the same is true with regard to time on the erg. You can float through 20 minutes of easy pulls and get a nice sweat up at one end of the spectrum or you can do several moderate to high intensity intervals at the other end of the spectrum.

For me, rowing generally feels like a higher intensity activity than running. I am thinking about 1 hour of running = 40 min of rowing. For comparison, that same hour of running for me relates to about 2.5 hours of cycling.

Running is generally harder on the cardio right? And cycling depends very much on the terrain/traffic? Like you say its not really helpful to try to draw a direct comparison.

I would say that on the erg I think I could do a HM at 2:25 and hold a conversation all the way through. I don't think I could ever run a HM talking non-stop.

ggumpshots wrote:
My question-without going into doctoral arguments on Human physiology.
Is there a general similar guide for minimum time for rowing to improve aerobic capacity,specifically VO2 max?

Rowing move more muscles than running so it's plausible and mostly agreed that, aerobically wise and with comparable intensity, rowing 45' equals to running 60'.

@Oldcolonial. I agree with you 100%

And, before the flame starts, this is a rowing forum, ask the same question on a runner's forum and balance.

Take note I'll NOT answer the question if 20' IS or is NOT enough.

@VO2max now. This is mostly a misguessed question. Modern literature tell us the baseline VO2max is barely trainable. What IS largely trainable is your percent of utilization of your baseline VO2max and your ability to sustain the effort in presence of huge lactate % - that damn deflection point in the curve, right?-

Have a good day.

Paolo, hm @ 2k+10.8

There certainly is much less scope to improve VO2max than increase the lactate threshold and exercise economy. With appropriate, aggressive, high-level training you might hit a VO2max ceiling within a year or two. Lactate threshold and exercise economy might continue to improve across an athlete's entire professional career.

Yet the idea that it's pretty much untrainable is old rather than new.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0073182

Gary,

GJS wrote:There certainly is much less scope to improve VO2max than increase the lactate threshold and exercise economy. With appropriate, aggressive, high-level training you might hit a VO2max ceiling within a year or two. Lactate threshold and exercise economy might continue to improve across an athlete's entire professional career.

Yet the idea that it's pretty much untrainable is old rather than new.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... ne.0073182

already read some time ago. Mostly on the continous / interval debate, of course.

I find the below sentence interesting .. do you?

This observation emphasizes that it may be unrealistic to expect significant segments of the population to participate in an exercise training program that permits them to

reach their individual upper limit for VO2max.

Cu. Paolo

Not really, Paolo.

That's simply a recognition that improving VO2max involves properly hard work. Certain segments of the population are unable or unwilling to do that.