Pain

[H2O]

This might fit into the competition section but I am posting it here since it does not refer to any specific competition and is relevant for intense training sessions also.

I found a video on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHwv4cNyOs where
various rowers talk about what it is like to row a 2000m race.
They mention the pain that comes on, Tufte in particular mentions that the pain peaks a 400-500m
(probably because of the explosive start) and you have to row through it without letting up and it will subside a little.

Now in my own races or hard intervals I have had some pretty unforgettable feelings but they are not well described by the word "pain". It's more like a general malaise where your system is under vicious attack and hardly able to cope on any level.
In particular I hit the feeling that legs will seize up very late in the game (for 10 strokes at most).
I interprete this as a sign of imminent breakdown.

Is it realistically possible to have that feeling of legs seizing up say at 1000m and then keep going
for 1000 more meters?

Should I be closer to the edge of failure and actually feel the lactate earlier?
Personally I did almost no anaerobic training and always rowed on very low drag settings (100-108) and the main problem always was (and still is) getting enough oxygen.

[hjs]

If the word pain is right?, its more being very uncomfortable, its more a feeling of drowning. Which does not stop at the finish, but can take a good few minutes, sometimes longer. At worse up to half an hour.
If you start hurting around 1k in, its very very tough. Don,t forget that guys like Tufte are bizar aerobicly fit, a body like that can do crazy stuff.
If you look at the wr lightweight, you see a man going like mad, but right at the finish he looks ok. Not possible for a average Joe.
I myself have been in a very bad place at 1500m in, I can finish from there, without slowing down, but its horrible, and afterwards sometimes people come up to me and ask why I hurt myself so much. So it very much shows.

[Cyclist2]

If you look at the rankings for all the various distances within any age or weight group, you'll notice that the 2000m times for, say, the 90th percentile, are very fast. In other words, to get into the top tier of the rankings on the 2000m you have to go relatively MUCH harder than for any of the others.

That is where the "pain" comes from. It seems that 2000m is right at the point where it's too long to just blast it like a 500m piece, and too short to settle into a nice steady aerobic pace like a 5000m trial. To do well, you have to go harder for the entire distance than your body likes. You are on the edge of failing the entire time! It is as much mental as physical - to push through that "general malaise" you describe.

Elite rowers feel the same thing as you or me, they just go faster!

[nick rockliff]

... and too short to settle into a nice steady aerobic pace like a 5000m trial.

Sounds like you've never done a max effort 5k? Horrible distance at full throttle, in my experience.

Very true, one of the easiest distances to get very wrong pace wise.

[Cyclist2]

Sounds like you've never done a max effort 5k? Horrible distance at full throttle, in my experience.

Oh yeah. By the end I'm whooped and hanging on, but my arms, legs and lungs aren't on fire like they are from about 1250m to the end of a 2K. I've done enough of all the distances that I know my sustainable paces (see the Nonathlon page, same user name) with a push toward the end if I'm having a good day. In a 2K, that pace is at my absolute limit, and it hurts. Bad.

Maybe you've never done a max 2K?!

[Gammmmo]

legs seizing up at 1000m and then keep going?

- slightly different for me as not done a 2k for 10 years or so!! that is about to change as i think that distance's training will help push me to a sub18 5K - which is what I want most right now. As for the SB/PBs of late I don't think my legs have seized at 1000m once. If I am clearly going well half way thru and "it's on" I finish the piece by raising the pace quite a bit intermittently by 5/10 strokes and build the pain that way. Within 1000m I will tend to always be pulling strokes below the average and will aim to do a big negative split and increasingly so as the PM clicks down towards zero meters. I seldom frontload the effort and hang on....but that *may* work better with practice for all I know. Remi is your man on that lol. FWIW I've never felt the urge to fall/roll off the erg after...rather I guage the effort by how long I'm slumped in the seat.

[hjs]

Sounds like you've never done a max effort 5k? Horrible distance at full throttle, in my experience.

Oh yeah. By the end I'm whooped and hanging on, but my arms, legs and lungs aren't on fire like they are from about 1250m to the end of a 2K. I've done enough of all the distances that I know my sustainable paces (see the Nonathlon page, same user name) with a push toward the end if I'm having a good day. In a 2K, that pace is at my absolute limit, and it hurts. Bad.

Maybe you've never done a max 2K?!

Its all the same, a 1 a 2 a 5, if done at really really 100% which most people don,t do its horrible. Only the amount of time differs. 2k being the race distance is proberly the one people give it their best.
Rankings are deciving, most counties don,t rank. The rankings are far from complete.

[Gammmmo]

if done at really really 100% which most people don,t do its horrible.

Agreed. Don't think it's a physiological process i.e. lactate and pain, that slows people down from a mechanical standpoint...it's more in the head (Central Governor Theory) as to what level of pain has become intolerable. I also think the difference can be quite alot depending on how deep you can go. There is alot of latency in all of us, we can do more than we think. Another caveat is the concept of getting a "second wind" during a session.

[hjs]

if done at really really 100% which most people don,t do its horrible.

Agreed. Don't think it's a physiological process i.e. lactate and pain, that slows people down from a mechanical standpoint...it's more in the head (Central Governor Theory) as to what level of pain has become intolerable. I also think the difference can be quite alot depending on how deep you can go. There is alot of latency in all of us, we can do more than we think. Another caveat is the concept of getting a "second wind" during a session.

I once was able to push myself so hard I blacked out, was doing (running) intervals with a buddy at the time, both roughly same speed. I backed out after the last rep, buddy was throwing up in the bushes. Can,t say it was very productive.....

During races I almost always empty myself in the last quarter, but sometimes I am already close to the end sooner. Thats very very uncomfortable.
At erg races, you see guys dropping of the erg, others just stand up and walk away........ Unbelieveble to me.

It does help to be a non sprinter and be very aerobicly fit, less lactate buildup and at the same time more ability to clear lactate.

[Gammmmo]

if done at really really 100% which most people don,t do its horrible.

Agreed. Don't think it's a physiological process i.e. lactate and pain, that slows people down from a mechanical standpoint...it's more in the head (Central Governor Theory) as to what level of pain has become intolerable. I also think the difference can be quite alot depending on how deep you can go. There is alot of latency in all of us, we can do more than we think. Another caveat is the concept of getting a "second wind" during a session.

I once was able to push myself so hard I blacked out, was doing (running) intervals with a buddy at the time, both roughly same speed. I backed out after the last rep, buddy was throwing up in the bushes. Can,t say it was very productive.....

During races I almost always empty myself in the last quarter, but sometimes I am already close to the end sooner. Thats very very uncomfortable.
At erg races, you see guys dropping of the erg, others just stand up and walk away........ Unbelieveble to me.

It does help to be a non sprinter and be very aerobicly fit, less lactate buildup and at the same time more ability to clear lactate.

yeah, previous thread u commented on when I brought up Henrik Stephenson (LWT for those who dont know) going sub6, and then casually undid the foot straps. obviously massively aerobic.

[bisqeet]

What is this pain thing...
My 2k never hurt that much... :p

[hjs]

What is this pain thing...
My 2k never hurt that much... :p

Don,t be modest Dean, no erg from you ever hurted

[bisqeet]

What is this pain thing...
My 2k never hurt that much... :p

Don,t be modest Dean, no erg from you ever hurted

obviously due to my supreme aerobic fitness

[hjs]

obviously due to my supreme aerobic fitness

What else

[H2O]

Some of the rowers in th video talked about "burning" (due to lactate buildup).
I have had this sensation when doing weight lifting with low weights, many reps (60-70).
This can be severe.
In principle that would fit in with rowing a 2K, you do 200 reps. The problem would be that
many more muscles are engaged and if all those get into that state you are done for sure.

Next time I'll make an experiment on the leg press, I'll try to choose a weight I can repeat 100
times and see what happens.
I used to live with a cyclist who got on a leg press machine (sitting pushing out horizontally
not upwards) for 20min. He started shaking all over his body after 15min but kept going!
It inspired me to do 100+ reps myself.