Concept2 Forum

Joined a gym with a concept2 and have been working at it for a couple weeks. It's awesome. I have really been working on using my legs and think I am kind of getting the hang of it. But then I realized I am not really pulling at all with my arms/upper back at the end. So I tried to pull at the end of the stroke and immediately got a consistent increase in my pace at the same stroke rate. I use the force curve to help make sure I'm driving with my legs and noticed when I used my arms at the end my force curve started the same but then decreased much more slowly.

So after all that, my basic question is how hard do you pull with your arms at the end?

Thanks!

First of all, I want to comment on what you did to increase your pace. You experimented. That is exactly what everyone should do. There are of course basics to the rowing stroke. And one can look in the mirror and more or less see compliance. But is one really achieving maximum power? Everyone should play around with trying stronger leg push, back movement, and arm pull. Some might say that rowing is all legs, or mostly legs. Wrong. You ever see the back muscles on elite rowers? Rowing is a coordinated movement involving legs, back, and arms. You won't get good until you maximize their utilization. Of course, within the confines of your own fitness and strength and duration of workout. That is the answer.

yohechris wrote: So after all that, my basic question is how hard do you pull with your arms at the end?

You don't pull with your arms much, they supply very little of the power. The arms are mainly used to connect your body to the handle (or blade in a boat). Most of the power in the drive is from your legs. Most of the action with arms is to turn things round at backstops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXnKyJdA01w

yohechris wrote:Joined a gym with a concept2 and have been working at it for a couple weeks. It's awesome. I have really been working on using my legs and think I am kind of getting the hang of it. But then I realized I am not really pulling at all with my arms/upper back at the end. So I tried to pull at the end of the stroke and immediately got a consistent increase in my pace at the same stroke rate. I use the force curve to help make sure I'm driving with my legs and noticed when I used my arms at the end my force curve started the same but then decreased much more slowly.

So after all that, my basic question is how hard do you pull with your arms at the end?

Thanks!

Depends, on short work a lot, on lot work much so, main reason, longer work the limiting factor is never strenght but aerobic fitness. Ofcourse overly using the armpull will give you extra speed, but how long can you do that?

Rowers ofcourse are relative strong, power from the legs goes through the body, so that does get trained.

I probably use my arms and upper back more than average - I do this because I like to rapidly change the handle direction once a stroke is pulled and to instigate movement back towards the fan cage. I'd say you need to also ask "how much do you use the opening of the hips?" too, assuming you're not lumping that in. What I have found is that I use my legs LESS on longer pieces and easier pieces, but right now every other day I am doing alot of work around my 5K PB and have noticed I HAVE TO engage the legs much more, and I certainly notice the difference in muscle sorenss. Go figure...

On long, slow pieces I have the bad habit of barely using my arms. The right half of my force curve looks a lot fuller at stiffer paces.

If you're going at full lick I think the answer is always: as much as you can without compromising form or stressing your energy system disproportionately.

You might often see talk that rowing is 60% legs, 30% trunk, 10% arms. Especially bold and disdainful citizens go so far as to say the legs contribute 70%. The general idea at play is that Joe Public thinks rowing is an arm exercise so esoteric knowledge is better displayed by stressing the contribution of legs.

Yet:

..the segments power of the World best rowers have higher trunk share and less arms: legs 43%, trunk 36%, arms 21%.

http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2014_files ... News12.pdf

http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2002_files ... News02.pdf

how hard do you pull with your arms at the end?

Not very hard. If we pull arms only and see 60 Watts steady state at rating 40, then the average handle force (arms only) is 20 x W/R = 20 * 60/40 = 30 kg.

After a few minutes arms-only we know whether any particular Watt/Rating (= Work) combination suits us or not. These numbers can be seen when doing a backstop drill to warm up (arms only, then add swing, then legs).

hmm.. sometimes i see the (what i call) the wapid wabid wabbit stroke.
the typical 50+ Rating, where the legs are "nearly" stationary and nearly all the work comes from the back and arms
(100m -500m sprints, etc.).

i'm going to have to video myself, but i suspect that most of the work is being produces by my legs, the arms continue the motion, with maybe a little acceleration on the "feather" flick at the end.

bisqeet wrote:hmm.. sometimes i see the (what i call) the wapid wabid wabbit stroke.
the typical 50+ Rating, where the legs are "nearly" stationary and nearly all the work comes from the back and arms
(100m -500m sprints, etc.).

i'm going to have to video myself, but i suspect that most of the work is being produces by my legs, the arms continue the motion, with maybe a little acceleration on the "feather" flick at the end.

That can work quite well....briefly. I've seen a rating of >80 with this technique and it's not hard at all to get down into the 1:20s. It's also a great way to scr3w your back up.

Gammmmo wrote:

bisqeet wrote:hmm.. sometimes i see the (what i call) the wapid wabid wabbit stroke.
the typical 50+ Rating, where the legs are "nearly" stationary and nearly all the work comes from the back and arms
(100m -500m sprints, etc.).

i'm going to have to video myself, but i suspect that most of the work is being produces by my legs, the arms continue the motion, with maybe a little acceleration on the "feather" flick at the end.

That can work quite well....briefly. I've seen a rating of >80 with this technique and it's not hard at all to get down into the 1:20s. It's also a great way to scr3w your back up.

The leg/hip muscle are the strongest we have, sprinting we appley the most force we can, so thinking in sprinting we mostly use upperbody and arms can,t be right. Yes the knees bent less, bit still plenty. And even without bending the body needs to counter the forces from the arms and back.

So your replies got me thinking about the math. So my rate increased from 2:15 to 2:10 both at an SPM of 20. If you convert that to Watts it looks like if I was adding nothing with my arms at 2:15, then at 2:10 the arms are supplying 10% which is what arms are "supposed" to add. Although I wonder where that figure comes from and someone posted that the actual percentage of back and arms from elite rowers is a lot higher. I did feel like at 2:15 that my arms were adding nothing to the force. It was like doing a one-armed row with 5 pounds. Will have to work at it to see if it is sustainable and how it works at higher rates. Thanks for the replies.

70% legs 30% upper back arms

James_Chelt_UK wrote:70% legs 30% upper back arms

I see numbers like that repeated over and over, but the reality is far more complicated. In the first place, there are large differences in rowing techniques. Yes, the heavily front-end loaded techniques have a large leg component. But other techniques emphasize more simultaneous application of legs and back/arms and the power distribution is more even. The force curves are quite different. In the later, it is more a flattened bell-shaped curve without much of a peak. If I had to guess percent power contribution it would be more like 45, 35, 20 for legs, back, arms. I doubt if it is beneficial to make yourself have a certain force curve. I would say make it smooth and repeatable regardless of specific overall shape.

James_Chelt_UK wrote:70% legs 30% upper back arms

I have quite odd proportions with quite short legs and a long body, and on top of that I have a lot of power in my backswing. I've found the most efficient way to row for me, both on the erg and the water is with a relitively relaxed and smooth leg drive and swing back with a lot more effort. Of course I can't go crazy with the power I put through with my back as that would massively upset the boat when I'm out on the water, but its still noticable, to the point where I probably get the same power from my back as I do my legs. This gives me a power curve which doesn't build particularly rapidly and which peaks quite late. My point is everyone is going to have unique proportions and so just slapping on a set of values that are 'best' doesn't really work. Long legs will tend towards a long powerful leg drive which will provide a very large amount of power compared to their body lean and arms, and the opposite can be said for someone like myself.

I watched a video of a race I did yesterday and noticed that I don't swing my back very far compared to, say, Jim Gratton who was also visible in the video. Being short I am way more compact all the way from beginning to end. I wonder if I should add more swing? Has anyone been successful at adding more swing over doing what feels seems to feel natural? And did it matter much to pace or efficiency?