relatively new, some questions

[Frank_Pet]

Hi - I started July this year and have been going to gym 4-5 times a week and rowing 20-30k (total). Been reading a lot, mainly on this board.....

I have some questions:

1) Low rating : my free rate is around 25-26spm. and I read that it is really important to do long pieces at a lower rate. , Say 20... So the question is when you are low rating are you supposed to attempt to achieve the same pace / watts or does one generally to try to do it at a bit of a lower pace. For example I did a 6k piece the other day at 2:12 avg pace (150 watts) and 26spm. am I trying to hit that using 20 spm? Reason I ask is it seems that many of the posts talk about taking it relatively easy on long low rate rows. which gets to my second question...

2) How does one 'use' heart rate to monitor UT1 / UT 2 /AT zone? I have a 'Fit bit' watch that will log my HR for the session. which is good but my HR starts out low, builds up, has peaks, Workout today is good example. Peak of 159, average of 138 (and that average has the very low rates included as it builds up). what would one one 'call this' session. My UT2 / UT1 threshold is 140. so was this UT1 or UT2?..... as an aside one reason I am trying to look at this is I think I am pushing too hard every time. I have a hard time not going full out on every workout. My max HR according to the BS "220 - age rule" is 167. I hit 160's all the time, have hit mid 170's, and even hit 181 the other day. I am trying to moderate some of the workouts hence the question on how to monitor and well as the first question on 'should low rate stuff be at easier pace'

3) Drag factor...... I don't think my technique is great (but not horrible)..... Im working on it...... Heres the thing. I can row at a much faster pace (even on 5-6k Pieces) at a damper setting of 8 then that of a 4. Ive started trying to at least look at DF when I sit on a machine, but I don't remember offhand at my gym what the 8 or 4 is but I think the 8 is around 170 DF...... anyway, strange right? and I know to some extent to each is own but I wonder if I have bad habits and whether I should just notch down and train at 4 or 5 or whatever. Does the fact that I am able to pace faster at an 8 give any hints as to what I might be doing wrong?


Thanks all!

[G-dub]

You will get slightly different answers. Here's mine for what it's worth:

1. If you are comfortable right now at r25-26 there is nothing wrong with that rate. Going lower does allow you to use more power per stroke and not get too winded. It is tough to say whether your pace will be less than current. I know my max r26 pace is faster than my max r20 pace and I would think that would be the case for you. The biggest thing to focus on with r20 is strong leg drive and strong and long strokes then easy recovery.

2. Make sure you use a HR monitor with a strap. I hear wrist ones don't work too good. You can use average HR or ending HR. I think most of us use HR to "cap" effort, so it tends toward limiting pace to stay within a specific HR band. It also can be used to make sure you are up into a HR band too. But HR varies a bit day to day so we can also use pace, breathing and PE to triangulate it. Oh, and everyone will rightfully tell you that HR formulas don't work. You will need to find your individual max by observing your while doing very hard work or doing a max HR test. But if all you want to do is stay aerobic, then you can observe your "aerobic" HR by doing "talk test" (your HR when you can't talk a few sentences together without gasping) or by noticing your HR when your breathing gets more labored. You can just watch it for several sesssions to see what it does and see the patterns.

3. I think most start out with high drag - maybe because they don't yet know how to use legs to fullest off of the catch. Lower it all the way down as an experiment and really jet off the catch to see what I mean.

[jamesg]

We do low rate work in training because we can then maintain a really hefty (i.e. long and hard) stroke, as used at high rating in a race, but without early failure. This method trains our technique, endurance and strength, which is nearly all that's needed for 2k racing, and is more than enough for normal fitness.

Heart Rate training. If your observed max is 180, presumed minimum 60, then you have a range of 120, and your maximum endurance training HR (top UT1) would be 60 + 120 x 0.8 = 156 (Karvonen). Suggest you log the corresponding power levels, so that starting from cold you can plan warmup easily; HR does not react immediately.

You can see how rowing is done here: http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos
Low drag and low feet will help. We use the recovery sequence shown in the video to get to the best posture, which lets us pull fast and hard starting with the legs to ensure maximum acceleration. This is critical.

A long rest between solid strokes will do no harm, with low drag a flywheel (or a fast boat) won't stop so there's no hurry.

[aussieluke]

For a reasonable HR guideline if you don't have any other metrics to go on, ie max HR, resting HR etc, then check out the Mafetone formula and take note of the extra adjustments for fitness levels, health etc.

You'll get a useable number - just stay under but as close to that as possible and you will improve.

[Frank_Pet]

Thanks G-dub

James and Aussieluke -Thanks but............

I feel like you are explaining the 'why' behind low rating. I get the why..... I am asking a 'how' question. Specifically..... would one expect to train / aim for the same power on a low rate pull vs a free rate one? or do you train with a low rate stroke that is lower power than a free rate stroke?

and on the heart rate - as well a somewhat different question. assume I know my UT1 limit. and assume it is 156..... am I trying to not go above that on any given beat or is it more the average I am aiming to keep below 156 (after I have warmed up).


Thanks again

[G-dub]

We can row with soft strokes at r26 and hard strokes at r20 and be at the same pace. But generally, your r20 will be lower paced than r26 because you won't have the power on the drive part to be faster. Basically what you are trying to get to is a drive that stays similar at different ratings and what changes is the pace of the recovery between strokes. This isn't always true, as sometimes you really push the power on the drive and other times you may want a softer stroke and higher rate. But at your stage, I would gradually learn how to make good solid strokes on the drive part and then ease back to the catch in about a 1:3 ratio (I think). Let the rate fall where it is comfortable. Over time it will get easier to get to lower ratings.

Don't get too wrapped up in the HR limits, they arent hard and fast. But if you want to stay aerobic, then stay below the heart rate you have figured for yourself. And do lots of meters below that. Actually, you will want to be 10 beats or so below that one because your HR will drift up as you get dehydrated and tired!

[lindsayh]

Hi - I started July this year and have been going to gym 4-5 times a week and rowing 20-30k (total). Been reading a lot, mainly on this board.....
I have some questions:
1) Low rating : my free rate is around 25-26spm. and I read that it is really important to do long pieces at a lower rate. , Say 20... So the question is when you are low rating are you supposed to attempt to achieve the same pace / watts or does one generally to try to do it at a bit of a lower pace. For example I did a 6k piece the other day at 2:12 avg pace (150 watts) and 26spm. am I trying to hit that using 20 spm? Reason I ask is it seems that many of the posts talk about taking it relatively easy on long low rate rows. which gets to my second question...
2) How does one 'use' heart rate to monitor UT1 / UT 2 /AT zone? I have a 'Fit bit' watch that will log my HR for the session. which is good but my HR starts out low, builds up, has peaks, Workout today is good example. Peak of 159, average of 138 (and that average has the very low rates included as it builds up). what would one one 'call this' session. My UT2 / UT1 threshold is 140. so was this UT1 or UT2?..... as an aside one reason I am trying to look at this is I think I am pushing too hard every time. I have a hard time not going full out on every workout. My max HR according to the BS "220 - age rule" is 167. I hit 160's all the time, have hit mid 170's, and even hit 181 the other day. I am trying to moderate some of the workouts hence the question on how to monitor and well as the first question on 'should low rate stuff be at easier pace'
3) Drag factor...... I don't think my technique is great (but not horrible)..... Im working on it...... Heres the thing. I can row at a much faster pace (even on 5-6k Pieces) at a damper setting of 8 then that of a 4. Ive started trying to at least look at DF when I sit on a machine, but I don't remember offhand at my gym what the 8 or 4 is but I think the 8 is around 170 DF...... anyway, strange right? and I know to some extent to each is own but I wonder if I have bad habits and whether I should just notch down and train at 4 or 5 or whatever. Does the fact that I am able to pace faster at an 8 give any hints as to what I might be doing wrong?

Frank you will get some difference of opinion but for me:
1) the goal for lower rated pieces should be to have a strong stroke with watts about equal to the faster ones (per stroke). So if you can pull say 180w sr20 that is 9w per stroke then if you are pulling 25sr that will be a 225w piece. The theory then is that you work at getting fit enough to pull 9w/stroke at 30sr and there is your fast 2km at 270w. The difference in the rate is in the recovery not the speed of the stroke - still get hands away quickly. 150w at 26sr is 6w per stroke (also called spi) which is pretty low. First goal could be to do the 150w piece and gradually lower the sr without losing power. There is nothing magical about sr20 but a lot of OTW people use it - for a lighter guy 22 is fine IMO. There was some talk a couple of days ago here - Remi does nearly all his training at 10w spi whether his sr is 18 or 28 and whether 1k or 20k - that is pretty amazing but that is the gold standard.
2) A wrist watch monitor doesn't work with rowing HR. You need a strap - garmin and wahoo tickr both work well. The only way to know your MHR is to test it out and it could be 180 (the formula is useless) The training bands are based on the peak not the average and average means little really. It does sound like you are pushing too hard and need maybe to back off for some of the steady sessions. The cap is then say 80% of HRR +rhr - there are a number of recent discussion about all that here. In the absence of real numbers you could work at limiting to HR around 150 which would be pretty close from the sound of things.
So steady pieces could be done at sr22-4 and with a cap of 150HR and a goal of 150-180w to start with. It gets better as you get fitter.
3) The Drag factor damper setting talk is everywhere here and it is worth finding and reading. If you are using a damper setting not drag factor then that is pretty much useless as it varies hugely from machine to machine. A damper setting of 8 may be DF of 80 or 180 especially on a gym machine. On gym machines you need to get into the habit of looking at DF each time you work out. Your workouts are best done with a DF of somewhere between 110 and 130 probably. If you are training at 170 DF then it may take a little time to get the feel of a lower number but in the long run you will do much better with it lower especially if you have a relatively weak stroke. One of the reasons you have trouble lowering stroke rate may be the high DF - the fan is slowing too quickly because it is heavy and you are racing to get back to it. this will also make holding pace harder and hence HR goes up. Post of technique video will help sort out what is going on.

[Bob S.]

Thanks G-dub

James and Aussieluke -Thanks but............

I feel like you are explaining the 'why' behind low rating. I get the why..... I am asking a 'how' question. Specifically..... would one expect to train / aim for the same power on a low rate pull vs a free rate one? or do you train with a low rate stroke that is lower power than a free rate stroke?

As lindsayh said, keep the same work done per stroke. You get that by dividing the wattage by the stroke rate. I believe that doing that is a full answer to the how question. Your 6k example was 150 watts at 26 rpm, so that would be 5.8 watt-minutes of work done per stroke. At 20 rpm it would mean dropping the wattage to 116.

Bob S.

[G-dub]

The only question I have about being tied to watts and rating proportions too strictly is that it might keep one from being able to go the distance needed for good UT work or to keep the HR under control unless the ratings get potentially lower than comfortable. That is not to say that practicing the proportions isn't worthy, but for me I have to do them in intervals. For instance today I did 3 x 20' at 173w (2:06 avg.) r22 - not a bad row for me and it stayed within UT2/1 in terms of pace and HR. But the ratio was less than 8, which is lower than I would do for other distances. Had I done them at r20 same pace, or 19, or 18, my HR would have blown out and I would have had to slow down, which would have ended up getting me right back to what I was doing from a proportional standpoint. Or I would have had to stop.

[Frank_Pet]

Thank you all. Now I understand the answers very well..... side note I purchased a polar h7 and it arrived today..... I'm astounded with technology. I now have a drone that shoots live 4K video and a real time hr monitor for $50, which likely 10 years or so ago would have been thousands of dollars. Incredible ( and fun)

[aussieluke]

Kind've like Lindsay said above, a simple way for you might be to stick to that 150w, and try to lower your stroke rate while maintaining those watts.

If you monitor your HR while you do this, from workout to workout you will see the effect that rate at the same power has on your HR. There is a bit of a crossover between going up and down the slide fast and pulling relatively weakly, and pulling harder but having more recovery between each stroke, and less overall strokes. Eg I find my hr most consistent at 19spm and increasing or decreasing the watts per stroke.

What I'm trying to say is whatever your hr was at 150w and 26spm, you might find it won't be that different at 20 spm for the same watts. (Because you have 2 seconds of easy recovery between each stroke).

Another thing is if you're new to this your fitness may improve rapidly at first and your HR could be pretty inconsistent from one workout to the next. So maybe pick a reasonable wattage (150) and a set duration - say 20 or 30 minutes, and do that each workout while trying to lower your stroke rate from one workout to the next ...and just monitor what your HR does without worrying about it too much.

Then when you can do that workout at say 20spm comfortably, go up to 155w for a workout or two and see how your HR reacts.

If you can be consistent like that, without trying to go faster each time, then you can also see the difference that other factors will have on heart rate - time of day, hydration, room temp, airflow, food intake, sleep, sickness and more

[jamesg]

would one expect to train / aim for the same power on a low rate pull vs a free rate one? or do you train with a low rate stroke that is lower power than a free rate stroke?

Your 150W at rate 26, related to your height and age, says that you have some room for stroke improvement, so same power, lower rating is possible. Unfortunately it doesn't come on its own, but needs application of the technique you can see in the C2 video, with the sequences shown there which tend to increase the net stroke length and improve catch posture.

As Bob says, the ratio Watts/Rating is Work, the work in each stroke. This is stroke quality. I'd suggest that ratio 8 is within your capabilities, maybe even easy. It will need a fastish catch taken with the legs from a strong posture, as if jumping off the ground. In all probability you have that posture when you take first stroke from half slide against a dead flywheel. The hard part is repeating it for the next thousand strokes. Lower drag might help, because it lets us move fast.

[Frank_Pet]

Thanks everyone. A lot of useful feedback and a bunch to focus on. Exactly what I was looking for.