30' row for distance

[psychoswim]

Hi,

So I'm first and foremost and outrigger canoe and dragon boat paddler but we use the erg as cross training during our winter season. We have a once weekly intervals workout that progresses through the season, and once every 2 weeks we have another workout where we alternate 30', 15' and 2x8' for distance as markers. All our workouts are done at 25-29 rate (I'm on the low side usually 24-25) with no set drag factor.

Last year I was able to get up to 7300m on my 30' row but even then I was having the same problems I am having this year. I just cannot seem to get through the 30' without having to row some recovery intervals after the half point (as in going 2 mins hard and then 20 secs easy and so on). The same thing happens regardless of how fast or slow I start so in the end, I just end up going less distance if I start at a slower pace. Tonight ended up at 7028m which is just plain bad even though my erg seems rather slow compared to other machines I've used (it's new). First 10' tonight was around 2:06 compared to my best last year which had the first 10' at 2:01 so the major difference is just the front end speed..

Anyone have any advice?? I paddle for hours at a time in the summer with no issue (my favorite distance is 30-40 km which is just under 3-4 hours) so why can't I row for 30'? I also used to be a national team swimmer so it's not like I'm not fit either.. I've been trying to play around with technique to find a way to tax my quads less or find anything that makes it "easier" but no luck. So frustrating because I really want to love my erg but I keep getting defeated.

[mdpfirrman]

Out of curiosity, do you ever row unstrapped? Either your cardio isn't very good (unlikely) or your form is off. I'm not a great rower by any means (I'm slightly better than average - that's it) but I have learned what's helped me in the last two years of rowing (I started at age 50).

I thought my form was good (or decent) until I started rowing my rows unstrapped. By rowing unstrapped, it teaches you if your rowing order is right or not. If it's not, you fall back off the rower (or are heading that way). It's a very quick, easy way to figure out if you've got either counter productive momentum or if you're not using your arms, body and legs in proper order. I found out that I was using my feet way too much to pull in for the catch (you shouldn't do that unless you're rating much higher) and I was spending too much time at the top of my finish (and hitting myself in the chest wasting momentum). Rowing unstrapped taught me to get my hands out in front of me much faster. Now on either longer rows or shorter rows, my form is drastically better. You still row your faster rows strapped in.

The other thing I see you mentioned is that your 30' row is your longest. I cut my row today short at 45 minutes due to time constraints - my shortest row in probably two weeks. Distance in the 30' row depends a lot on your ability to handle longer rows. You're not doing any from what it sounds.

[psychoswim]

I have rowed unstrapped before but not recently, I will give it another try to see where I stand right now. My sequence seems ok. I will have to see about wasting momentum at the top of my finish as I do hit my chest with the handle every time. I also wonder if my seat being really stiff (Concept 2 is sending a replacement) means I have to use my legs more to get back to the catch.

The reason 30' is the longest row is that there are already multiple longer cardio workouts in the week and prolonging the rowing workouts would be too much. I use a paddling erg machine 3x a week, add to that 2 swimming sessions and a hill runs session plus weights and a 2-hour long row/weights/plyometrics circuit. Rowing longer also lowers my ability to complete all my other workouts and unfortunately for the row, the paddling takes precedence. The intervals workouts we do total up around 30' of work every week. Considering the longest dragon boat race is about 9 minutes, it works. It's just that I also do marathon outrigger. (I do understand your point, in the end the 30' is just a marker of fitness but not as important as paddling. I do want to enjoy my rower more though!!)

[Anth_F]

If the seat rollers aren't rolling freely then they are adding unwanted resistance, hence tiring you and your legs out prematurely. Thats why you are going slower on your machine than on others.

[G-dub]

You are far too fit and far too experienced for the guys, like me, who have responded to have faster 30' times! And you know how to row. I hope it is equipment related. Have you tried a diferent machine? Different drag factors? Is the PE of being inside looking at numbers on a dumb machine messing with your head? It has to be something crazy that is causing this. I guesss posting a video of technique would eliminate that variable but I can't imagine that being the cause.

[psychoswim]

You are far too fit and far too experienced for the guys, like me, who have responded to have faster 30' times! And you know how to row. I hope it is equipment related. Have you tried a diferent machine? Different drag factors? Is the PE of being inside looking at numbers on a dumb machine messing with your head? It has to be something crazy that is causing this. I guesss posting a video of technique would eliminate that variable but I can't imagine that being the cause.

I just tried rowing unstrapped, I can hit about the same steady state splits.

I only have access to one other machine except my own, I haven't used it this year yet though.
I have tried playing with drag factor some. Right now I am at around 118-119 for everything. I find that going lower makes me slower as I don't want to increase my rate, but it might just be my stroke not being explosive enough for that drag. If I go higher drag, then I can bring the split down farther but I feel like my legs would give out even more. Worth a try on a longer row. When I was still swimming, we used to do sets of 500m after swim workout and always used damper 10! Not anymore (and not the same goal).

I don't know why the rowing erg gives me so much trouble. I have no trouble paddling indoors for longer periods. My coach suggested just hiding the split times for a few weeks and only keeping the timer visible, I will try this and see what happens. If I could only make it through without stopping! I was really wanting to reach 7500m.

As a reference, I'm 5'7" and just under 145lbs.

[gregsmith01748]

Hi Michelle,

I agree that it would be good to get some feedback on your technique just to get an idea if there might be an easy improvement. If it isn't that, then I have a few suggestions for you to try to break out of your 30 minute funk.

First: Try a push workout. Do a 30 minute piece, but instead of just pounding it out, start slow. Maybe at a 2:13 pace, and speed up by 1 second every 3 minutes. This will yield about 7000m, but the last 15 minutes will be closer to the 7300m target that you want. If that one goes easy, then the next time start a second or two faster. I love these workouts.

Second: Instead of 30 minutes, do a hard 5K or a hard 6k. That will push you to work through the tough part in the middle of the 30 minute piece, and might help you manage the "slight discomfort" that is part of the "fun" of these middle distance pieces.

Third: Experiment with stroke rate. In a 30 minute piece, start at 23, and then increase the rate by 1 spm every 5 minutes. Your pace will likely be a bit lower at 23 spm and faster as you go higher. This has three good effects. First, it forces you to think about technique at slightly different rates which can help you be a bit more mindful while you row. Second, it might help you find a sweetspot where you are more efficient for the 30' distance. Third, it keeps your brain busy so it stops bitching about not getting enough oxygen.

By the way, your 7300m performance is pretty impressive for a rower of your weight. I plugged it into the cpncept2 weight correction calculator, which gives you an adjusted score of 8381m. For reference, a rower my weight would need to pull 7800m (1:55 split) for an equivalent adjusted score.

[psychoswim]

Hi Greg,

Thank you for the suggestions. I will definitely try these variations, I think the progressive stroke rate might be the hardest one! I live alone but I will also try to get a video for some technique feedback. I don't pretend to have amazing technique so maybe there are indeed some easy fixes that no one has noticed before.

[gregsmith01748]

Hi Greg,

Thank you for the suggestions. I will definitely try these variations, I think the progressive stroke rate might be the hardest one! I live alone but I will also try to get a video for some technique feedback. I don't pretend to have amazing technique so maybe there are indeed some easy fixes that no one has noticed before.

A suggestion for video feedback without help. I usually set my phone on a chair or stool about 10 feet off to the side of the rowing machine. Usually, I use a book or something to prop it up. I get it all aimed and start recording, then get on the erg and start rowing. It doesn't take very many strokes to get settled, usually a minute of rowing is more than enough.

As for amazing technique...nobody's perfect, and perfection isn't the goal. It's really to just an attempt to get some free speed by trying some variations on what your doing.

Let me give you an example to show what I mean. I did an experiment the other day because I am struggling with an injured knee. I purposely shortened my stroke to avoid overcompressing my knee. When I looked at the data from the row, I found that holding the same power with a 10cm shorter stroke required nearly 20% higher peak force. That will tire you out really quickly. So, if video feedback can help you get even 5 cm more length in your stroke, you might be able to shave a couple seconds off your splits for a long piece without working any harder.

[G-dub]

Michelle, when I read your post I was imagining a 6'4" heavyweight male! Your current time is terrific. May be just a mental barrier to get over.

[jackarabit]

23% of people named Michelle are male despite the feminine gender spelling which is obvious to the French but not to the 23% of us who name our sons Michelle. There is a 77% chance that you are in fact a fabulous FHWT rower, Michelle. Don't keep us in suspense.

[psychoswim]

Hahaha! Strange, I have never seen Michelle used for a guy (even in English). So no, not a guy

I understand my current time is good (well my best time from last year, not so much this year), but am mostly annoyed at never being able to complete the piece without taking recovery intervals throughout. I think I am very strong mentally but so far the row is defeating me. It has to have something to do with how much the legs are pushed as they are not used as much in paddling (and even swimming).

I'll try to film next time I row. Small room so will be tricky but I should manage.

[G-dub]

I had failed to see your name when I first read the post.

[Cyclist2]

All the previous comments are good, no disagreement, try it all. However, it may just be that the sport-specific aspect is all that it is. I ride bikes almost exclusively in the summer, and row the erg almost exclusively in the winter. Every spring/fall at the transition, it's a struggle and I wonder what the heck is going on - I'm in great condition; thousands of miles on the bike/hundreds of thousands of meters on the erg! It's that sport-specific thing, and after I've done lots of long, slow, low rate, strapless rows (about a month), I'm back on track with a regular training plan.

Give yourself a break; you sound like you're definitely physically fit and you probably aren't doing anything "wrong", just getting used to the erg for those longer, mind-numbing pieces.

[mdpfirrman]

Michelle, when I read your post I was imagining a 6'4" heavyweight male! Your current time is terrific. May be just a mental barrier to get over.

Agreed. When you account for your size / height, you're doing fine (more than fine). Height (and even more so) strength / bulk is a huge determinant of rowing potential. As a 5'10" (190 lb) male, it took me nearly one year of rowing to get over 7500 meters for a 30' row. So for you to have that as a goal is impressive.