What is steady state?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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hjs
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by hjs » September 14th, 2016, 3:50 am

remisture wrote:What are your thoughts on this definition? https://www.reddit.com/r/Rowing/wiki/steady_state
Ut2 / steady state is pretty much training to fully develope aerobic fitness, hence the 2mmol border. Its training where the slowmuscle fibers do almost all the work. When the faster fibers get involved those will produce lactate, and the bloodlevels will rise above 2mmol. This is what you don,t want, the traininggoal is to train the pure aerobic capacity as high as possible. Getting the anaerobic system involved (fast muscle fibers) will hinder this.

Volume is important, this training is the bulk of modern training nowadays, for all aerobic sports. But we are talking about hours per day, not like most ergers who train a few hours per week.

Your training, for as far I have seen has zero steady state, you always go a good bit faster.

aussieluke
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by aussieluke » September 14th, 2016, 3:57 am

Problem with using lactate numbers as a guide is it is so hard to define, even to those who do actually take lactate measurements - let alone by everyone else who doesn't.

After reading just about all of the posts in all of the links on this page: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rowing/comment ... y_section/

...it seems even less clear! Some use different lactate ranges. Everyone seems to measure differently. There seems to be little correlation between lactate, heartrate, RPE, % 2k watts etc etc.

And, there seems to be a world of difference between those who are young high school / college competitive rowers and 'recreational' trainees and competetive athletes etc

From the anecdotal evidence in those posts it seems some can be doing steady state at 1:53ish for 60-90-120 minutes, and others on the same team need to go at 2:15 to stay below 2.0mmol.

I believe a lot of 'steady state' work is going to be the most beneficial to me at the moment, and I am trying to figure this all out on my own. I trained by HR alone for a while and soon noticed it is just too easily dependant on external and environmental factors - temp, airflow, hydration, food, tiredness and so on. I have since switched to watts, and started with 50% 2k watts for as much volume as I could get in - which is nothing like as much as a HS or college rower, but around 60k on a good week. I've been steadily ramping up the watts by 5 at a time and just monitoring how it feels, what my HR does, and how I feel day to day, appetite etc.

The problem is there is no way of knowing what >2.0 lactate 'feels' like

But if I can row at a consistent watts for a hour and my HR stays within a UT2 - low UT1 zone, and I am tired and sweaty but not dying and can still get up at the end and be pretty much recovered straight away, and I still have enough recovery to do some running some days and some strength training, then I 'guess' I must be pushing myself a bit - hopefully enough - but not too much.
Male, 35, 5'10", 78kg
Started rowing Feb 2016
500m 1:33.2
2000m 6:57.4
5000m 18:47.6

aussieluke
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by aussieluke » September 14th, 2016, 4:16 am

Seems just about everyone on this board is racing their training all the time at the moment.
Male, 35, 5'10", 78kg
Started rowing Feb 2016
500m 1:33.2
2000m 6:57.4
5000m 18:47.6

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hjs
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by hjs » September 14th, 2016, 4:19 am

remisture wrote:
hjs wrote:Your training, for as far I have seen has zero steady state, you always go a good bit faster.
Yes, that is my concern as well. Probably why I feel pretty beat up most of the week :)
Combination of weights, rowing etc is tough. I myself also have trouble with erging. I don,t race training, but still. Summer is also not helping. To warm

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by aussieluke » September 14th, 2016, 4:28 am

From my own findings, and from all the boring posts I've been reading, it can only take a few extra watts to take you well over the edge from <2.0mmol to way over 4+

I'm still going pretty slow at the moment, but had no problem training last week at 160w for around 60k.

Monday and Tuesday this week I did 3x20' each day at 165w and was wiped out by the end. Today I am going to hopefully do another 3x20' but at 155w

...slow, but if that is where my aerobic range is then so be it. The benefits from this kind of training are long term, not immediate.
Male, 35, 5'10", 78kg
Started rowing Feb 2016
500m 1:33.2
2000m 6:57.4
5000m 18:47.6

aussieluke
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by aussieluke » September 14th, 2016, 4:29 am

remisture wrote:Also, I find it much more motivating to do 5-10k in a higher pace, than doing 60-120 minutes in "snail" pace.
I find if I go by time instead of a set distance, then I have no desire to go any faster than necessary - 60 minutes is 60 minutes! Netflix is the best thing in the world when it comes to steady state!
Male, 35, 5'10", 78kg
Started rowing Feb 2016
500m 1:33.2
2000m 6:57.4
5000m 18:47.6

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hjs
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by hjs » September 14th, 2016, 4:39 am

remisture wrote:Also, I find it much more motivating to do 5-10k in a higher pace, than doing 60-120 minutes in "snail" pace.
The problem is, we see our pace. In a boat, bike etc, we don,t.

And for a guy like you faster shorter stuff is proberly just more fun. If you really would go for a fast 2k, thats an other matter. Erg training would be super boring. I have seen a few guys really switch to high volume, low rate stuff. I works super, but its really chaingang work. Boring as hell

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by turboskiff » September 14th, 2016, 4:45 am

remisture wrote:Also, I find it much more motivating to do 5-10k in a higher pace, than doing 60-120 minutes in "snail" pace.
There's your definition of steady state ;)

50%/60% effort that you can maintain [comfortably] for 60 minutes and up.

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by valgozi » September 14th, 2016, 6:32 am

These are helpful -
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/traini ... art-1.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/traini ... pions.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/traini ... ning.html/
etc....
aussieluke wrote:it can only take a few extra watts to take you well over the edge from <2.0mmol to way over 4+

If the stroke rate drops even one pip (but same pace/watts) the same can happen.

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by valgozi » September 14th, 2016, 6:40 am

Aerobic decoupling is an interesting one for SS - http://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/ ... ncy-Factor

I have never had a below 2mmol lactate row above 5% ...... however I have done max 30mins rows that have been below 5%.
Last edited by valgozi on September 14th, 2016, 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by turboskiff » September 14th, 2016, 6:42 am

paul45 wrote:I agree on the 5k-6k and endurance intervals, great for the fitness if done at ones best, anyone can
row these really slow, but get them just right, the rewards are big.

If you are feeling whacked its because you are not throwing in a recovery row now and then.
A very good point to make, Paul.

If you cannot row long then you must row quality.

IMO some people with limited time do too much UT2. We can measure it so it must be training, right? What happen is people do recovery rows with nothing to recover from.

Train hard, eat well, rest well. If you are not rowing right against your potential no need to analyze training too much.

If you are tired take a day off, take a walk, take a swim or something.

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by valgozi » September 14th, 2016, 6:47 am

turboskiff wrote: IMO some people with limited time do too much UT2.
You might say 'limited time but not quite limited enough' then.

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by gregsmith01748 » September 14th, 2016, 11:37 am

remisture wrote:What are your thoughts on this definition? https://www.reddit.com/r/Rowing/wiki/steady_state
This might the single most sensible document I have ever seen about steady state. The issue that you deal with when you are talking about exercise physiology is that not all human's react the same way to the same training stimulus. We are not machines, so different outcomes are certainly possible and the "perfect" definition of steady state is elusive.

It helps me to remember the basic objective and go from there.

Objective: Row 2000m faster

Rowing 2000m involves using multiple different energy systems in the body. There is reasonably strong evidence that organizing training to focus sessions on each energy system yields superior results than just pushing every session as hard as you can. So, how do you do that?

By tailoring the intensity of each session to a specific purpose and arranging sessions so that there is adequate recovery time between sessions focused on the higher end of the scale.

Steady State training is the training that is focused on two energy systems. The first converts fat into energy for muscles. This process does not produce any lacate. The second converts carbohydrates (in the form of Glycogen) into energy for muscles. This process does produce lactate.

There is an additional wrinkle. Lactate is not just a waste product. It is also used by the second system to produce energy, up to a certain intensity. If you are below that intensity, then lactate levels will be steady. If you are above that level, lactate levels will rise. The speed at which they rise, depends on how far above the threshold you are.

Most folks achieve a "Steady State" lactate level somewhere in the range from 1.5mmol/l and 2.0mmol/l. Generally, the fitter the individual, the lower the steady state lactate level.

The reason that lactates are the preferred measurement for this is because it is a direct measurement of what you are trying to accomplish. You want to make sure that the training for these base energy systems is not too intense because of a nasty twist. Once you go beyond the steady state threshold, not only are you increasingly relying upon glycogen and accumulating lactate, you are also effectively shutting down the system that produces energy from fat. This concept is call "The Crossover" and was published a while ago.

Image

This, in essence is why shorter harder sessions do not have the same effect and longer easier sessions.

The big problem is that lactate measurement in messy, error prone, painful, complicated, expensive and makes you look like a lunatic at the gym. So, what do you do? Well, if you are like me, you decide the live with the perforated fingers and weird looks and take the measurements anyway.

But if you aren't on the lunatic fringe, there are options. I think the best is using HR. It's not perfect, but if you train to a strict HR cap in your steady state sessions, you will probably be OK. The thing is that you should work to have your intensity dialed in so that you only get near your cap very close to the end of the session. The key is small adjustments.

If you aren't into HR based training, the next is to work off of 2K power. This is a fraction of the avg power of your last all out 2K test. In general, around 55% of 2K power. You train at that power until your next 2K test, and then adjust accordingly.

It's boring, but it works. One thing to consider is doing 2 45 minute sessions instead of 1 90 minute session. It's easier on the butt and back and provides just about the same benefit.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
Image

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Re: What is steady state?

Post by aussieluke » September 14th, 2016, 12:27 pm

Great explaination Greg.

From all the info available it also seems to me that there is almost no difference in doing 60-90 minutes straight, as opposed to 2 x 45 or 3 or 4 x 20 etc. or even 45' in the morning and 45' later in the day.
Male, 35, 5'10", 78kg
Started rowing Feb 2016
500m 1:33.2
2000m 6:57.4
5000m 18:47.6

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JohnAd
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Re: What is steady state?

Post by JohnAd » September 14th, 2016, 12:33 pm

Greg

Fascinating stuff, thanks for taking the time to post that. One thing I struggle to understand is the relationship between the use of the different energy systems and the length of the workout. Is the crossover graph shown valid for even short sessions? Another way of putting this question might be what's the shortest SS session that has any value at all and why?

John

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