Concept2 Forum

Here is my form after a few days of working on the tips I have received. This was a 500m very hard effort which I figured would be more like my true form and not what I can do at a slower rating and power while concentrating on just my form. Sorry it isn't the greatest angle but lots of people were in the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgNkambCKUQ

Jeff,
Looks like you're bending your arms way too early in the stroke. They should be the last to be engaged. Up till that point they are just like ropes attached to the handle--nice and supple. Try relaxing your grip. Hold the handle with only your fingers, like hooks, not with the whole hand. If you're a golfer, then you'd know what I mean. The grip should be relaxed, which will allow your arms to stay relaxed throughout the drive.

Sorry, I couldn't focus on your form, I was distracted by the guy behind you. Wow.

Ha ha! I totally missed that the first time around.

Two items, both with the same cause (missing the connection at the catch). First, it looks like you have overcompensated for the early back motion and are now engaging it a bit late causing you to shoot your tail. This is good, it means you understood the motion you needed to correct and have actively attempted and succeeded in doing so. Perhaps it has over corrected some, but really is in better territory now than before. So lets break this down. Shooting your tail means pushing with the legs prior to establishing a connection of your legs, through your body and arms, to the handle. Effect is the seat moves, but the handle does not move a proportionate amount (if at all) to the seat thus requiring an increased exertion from the upper body. This is most evident in the middle of the tape. The second item is not in my opinion that you are breaking your arms too early, but that you are attempting to compensate for the lost connection by breaking the arms (looks similar but actually very different items). Once you have missed the connection at the front, the two ways to re-establish connection is an extremely fast opening of the back which is difficult to pull off and very, very noticeable after a short time (i.e.: back pain). More often people will engage the arms early, as seen here, to re-establish the feel of connection. This allocates the shock to the shoulders, protects the lower back (to a degree), perhaps allows some residual leg movement to be used (though not efficiently), and just feels normal to most people (everyone associates arm contraction with hard work, it's normal).

So what's the fix? Mild retraction/tension of the upper back as you approach the catch combined with a slightly less pronounced leg drive/kick and more of a very rapid acceleration/press. Concept is, you want to establish the connection through your core and shoulders while maintain straight arms. To do it, for the moment, actively engage your core just an inch or two prior to the catch (not bearing down or holding our breath, just "pre-tensing"). At the same time, actively think about putting a slight pre-tension in the shoulders and upper back as well. Now, be careful with my wording. I am not telling you to open your body nor to pull with your shoulders. I am only telling you to engage the musculature. Try sitting in your chair right now and simply, mildly, flexing the muscle. Just enough so that if you were to put a load on it, it would be capable of supporting it. At the time, I am telling you to ease off the leg drive just a touch and make it a continuous and very firm build through the first few inches. The significant kick you have now is excellent, but honestly is a little more than your body is ready for so we need to take a step back in order to take two forward. After a little while, this will all become second nature and the tension will be more simultaneous with the catch itself and will allow you to use the kick to its full extent.

Drill suggestion: Korzo's - set erg at a reasonable drag, using low to moderate pressure - come up to the catch, set your body as if it is about to take a full stroke, now perform a stroke only using the legs. Your body will stay in the rocked forward position, your arms stay straight. All you do is push the legs down and practice creating and holding the connection. After 10-20 strokes, add the body swing in while holding the arms straight. So now you are practicing the catch and the transition into the body swing, using your shoulder musculature to maintain the connection. After 10-20 strokes you may add the arms in at the end and perform full strokes.

bobkwan2007 wrote:Jeff,
Looks like you're bending your arms way too early in the stroke. They should be the last to be engaged. Up till that point they are just like ropes attached to the handle--nice and supple. Try relaxing your grip. Hold the handle with only your fingers, like hooks, not with the whole hand. If you're a golfer, then you'd know what I mean. The grip should be relaxed, which will allow your arms to stay relaxed throughout the drive.

Actually I had the fingers hooked, I just didn't manage to translate that into supple arms and I was a golfer so I do know what you mean and that's why I was trying the looser grip which apparently isn't loose enough.

sheehc wrote:Two items, both with the same cause (missing the connection at the catch). First, it looks like you have overcompensated for the early back motion and are now engaging it a bit late causing you to shoot your tail. This is good, it means you understood the motion you needed to correct and have actively attempted and succeeded in doing so. Perhaps it has over corrected some, but really is in better territory now than before. So lets break this down. Shooting your tail means pushing with the legs prior to establishing a connection of your legs, through your body and arms, to the handle. Effect is the seat moves, but the handle does not move a proportionate amount (if at all) to the seat thus requiring an increased exertion from the upper body. This is most evident in the middle of the tape.

This is definitely something I am having trouble getting a handle on and I really like your explanation. I was really concentrating on driving the legs while not moving my upper body, but given the direction of the forces involved I can easily see how that would "shoot the seat". As a side note, I have been watching a lot of videos of world champions and comparing what I understood (probably incorrectly in some cases) with what I am seeing, and the connection at the catch is one of the things. I have been trying to keep the back in the same position for the first half of the drive but that is causing me to lose the connection. In watching the videos it seems that the people with good form might do most of the drive with the legs but they at least start their core moving slightly backward at the catch to establish a connection.

sheehc wrote: The second item is not in my opinion that you are breaking your arms too early, but that you are attempting to compensate for the lost connection by breaking the arms (looks similar but actually very different items). Once you have missed the connection at the front, the two ways to re-establish connection is an extremely fast opening of the back which is difficult to pull off and very, very noticeable after a short time (i.e.: back pain). More often people will engage the arms early, as seen here, to re-establish the feel of connection. This allocates the shock to the shoulders, protects the lower back (to a degree), perhaps allows some residual leg movement to be used (though not efficiently), and just feels normal to most people (everyone associates arm contraction with hard work, it's normal).
.

That is exactly right ! I noticed that too with the "breaking of the arms": I knew I wasn't really starting to pull with them because they flexed for an instant and then held that position until the drive was at least half over. I just didn't know why, or how to articulate it.

I also like the idea behind the drill and will certainly try it.

As you also mentioned, I need to work on accelerating the mass and not driving so hard right at the start. I think I do that to maintain the pace I want because my connection is inefficient. Once I get the connection down better I won't have so much wasted energy and will be able to build the drive (at least I hope so).
Thanks !

sheehc wrote: So what's the fix? Mild retraction/tension of the upper back as you approach the catch combined with a slightly less pronounced leg drive/kick and more of a very rapid acceleration/press. Concept is, you want to establish the connection through your core and shoulders while maintain straight arms. To do it, for the moment, actively engage your core just an inch or two prior to the catch (not bearing down or holding our breath, just "pre-tensing"). At the same time, actively think about putting a slight pre-tension in the shoulders and upper back as well. Now, be careful with my wording. I am not telling you to open your body nor to pull with your shoulders. I am only telling you to engage the musculature. Try sitting in your chair right now and simply, mildly, flexing the muscle. Just enough so that if you were to put a load on it, it would be capable of supporting it. At the time, I am telling you to ease off the leg drive just a touch and make it a continuous and very firm build through the first few inches. The significant kick you have now is excellent, but honestly is a little more than your body is ready for so we need to take a step back in order to take two forward. After a little while, this will all become second nature and the tension will be more simultaneous with the catch itself and will allow you to use the kick to its full extent.

Okay. This is all very helpful to me as I was feeling like I was loosing the first few inches of each leg drive while I was waiting for the chain to engage. I think I'm probably leaning back too early, but I've still yet to take a video. I think I'm going to have to do this as I think what I'm shooting for is sheehc's suggestion. Keep the videos coming, jlaw, as I've found this very helpful.

The dude behind you in this video REEAALLY makes me feel better about my form, btw

adutton wrote:Sorry, I couldn't focus on your form, I was distracted by the guy behind you. Wow.

That guy is such a distraction, feet and legs are rigid, seat doesn't move and he's got the damper on 10. If that were me I'd have to say something, most likely with the second word being "off" as in "F*** off until you've learned to row.".

I think you're looking lots better. I'd recommend thinking little circle, big circle. So that at the finish of the stroke you make a little circular motion to move the handle down slightly and get your hands away. As you come up to the catch for the next stroke you make a bigger circle to get your hands up ready to drive through the stroke. The whole catch, drive, recover becomes one single fluid motion, no pauses.

I also noticed you could get connected better. I saved a posting from Mel Harbour on getting connected. I found it very helpful and maybe you will too. In fact, it is one of the most useful rowing tips I have ever come across. Here it is:

--snip--It really then depends on what the problem is that you're having with the leg drive. In order to complete the diagnosis you need to understand the concept of connection. When you are in the drive phase of the stroke, you are basically attached to the machine by two points: your hands and your feet. Your body forms a linkage between the two. The instant this strong linkage is destroyed, you will no longer be getting power out of your leg muscles effectively into the handle.

You need to feel this connection all the way through the drive therefore.

--snip--However far more likely is that you are not getting connected. A few ideas:

Use a length of rope wrapped round the handle and chain guard (vertical bit below the monitor) to fix the handle at the catch. Then push with your legs to lift your bum about an inch off the seat (no more). Now hold the position for up to a minute. Do not let your bum rise any higher, or let your bum move backwards away from your heels. This is what being connected feels like. Leave your arms straight - if you bend your arms you will sit back down.

Then put the damper right up on 10 and row at quite a low rate ( 16-18 ). Don't hurry out of frontstops. Try and get the feeling of being light on your seat before you let the seat move away from your heels. You'll need to time the change of direction quite well to do this. Don't worry about being quick through the drive - it's not important.

Then drop the damper back to 3-4 and try and row without using any muscular effort at all. Just hook your weight onto the handle and then let your bodyweight take you backwards. As an extension to this, when you get to 2/3 of the drive done, just put a tiny blip of muscular force in to accelerate the legs and back through to the finish of the stroke together.

Then just build it up from there, but always keep connecting first! No matter how fast you're going (other than a 100m sprint!) it's very rare that you see people coming out of frontstops too slowly.

Mel Harbour

Byron Drachman wrote:I also noticed you could get connected better. I saved a posting from Mel Harbour on getting connected. I found it very helpful and maybe you will too. In fact, it is one of the most useful rowing tips I have ever come across. Here it is:

--snip--It really then depends on what the problem is that you're having with the leg drive. In order to complete the diagnosis you need to understand the concept of connection. When you are in the drive phase of the stroke, you are basically attached to the machine by two points: your hands and your feet. Your body forms a linkage between the two. The instant this strong linkage is destroyed, you will no longer be getting power out of your leg muscles effectively into the handle.

You need to feel this connection all the way through the drive therefore.

--snip--However far more likely is that you are not getting connected. A few ideas:

Use a length of rope wrapped round the handle and chain guard (vertical bit below the monitor) to fix the handle at the catch. Then push with your legs to lift your bum about an inch off the seat (no more). Now hold the position for up to a minute. Do not let your bum rise any higher, or let your bum move backwards away from your heels. This is what being connected feels like. Leave your arms straight - if you bend your arms you will sit back down.

Then put the damper right up on 10 and row at quite a low rate ( 16-18 ). Don't hurry out of frontstops. Try and get the feeling of being light on your seat before you let the seat move away from your heels. You'll need to time the change of direction quite well to do this. Don't worry about being quick through the drive - it's not important.

Then drop the damper back to 3-4 and try and row without using any muscular effort at all. Just hook your weight onto the handle and then let your bodyweight take you backwards. As an extension to this, when you get to 2/3 of the drive done, just put a tiny blip of muscular force in to accelerate the legs and back through to the finish of the stroke together.

Then just build it up from there, but always keep connecting first! No matter how fast you're going (other than a 100m sprint!) it's very rare that you see people coming out of frontstops too slowly.

Mel Harbour

this is excellent advice. rowing connected is the absolute key to speed. thanks Byron!

The highly renowned local coach that I finally hooked up with today pointed out the same issue with my feet and I think I fixed much of that issue. I'm also getting connected better but I'm still having trouble with my core at the catch. By trying to keep my shoulders back and relaxed I am swaying my lower back in instead of having the lower back a bit rounded and the diaphragm more open. He also had me two fingered rowing to lunge less at the catch and force me to accelerate. I'll post more video after a couple of days to see If people notice a difference