Training levels

[jlawson58]

I understand the need not to go "all out" in every workout but the training levels that the interactive page gave me seemed WAY low to be of much use. Eventually I will get on a periodization training plan once I decide on some future races or events, but for now I'm trying to go hard enough that I can still get some decent improvement before next months erg competitions in case I do them, but not so hard that I can't do 4-5 workouts per week and build my base endurance.

So, my simple question is this. As someone who just wants to row to build a base for a little while still, what kind of pace would you do compared to you hardest tests. For example, if you do a 2:01.5 for a 10k test, then what pace is good for a nice hard workout so that you can still do another decent workout the next day? 2:03? 2:10?

[ThatMoos3Guy]

I've personally found that about 4 or 5 seconds when you're at a slightly lower spm works out pretty well. For instance, if I did an all out 10k I'd pace it around a 1:56 or so, but for a distance row I'll settle in a little over 2:00 and bring it down over the course of the workout. I try to feel like I could go harder during the last 10 minutes, but that I don't really want to. But, that's just me.

There are of course tons of variables. If you're working out 8 or 9 times a week for upwards of 15 hours you're going to have a much different training plan than someone that has 5 one hour time slots. Likewise, the newer you are to rowing, the more you can push yourself during the initial stages.

[bloomp]

One issue that this new generation of coaches with their gadgets (lactate testing, VO2 max) is encountering is the old ways of just pushing hard every piece are not creating faster athletes. The accepted logic at the elite levels is that for most programs, the hard stuff (i.e. intervals and AT work) is not hard enough and the easy stuff (distance rowing that accounts for most of the volume) is not easy enough. You honestly don't want to do your distance rowing (anything more than an hour) faster than 2k+25, and that's the hardest you should be doing it. Ideally you want 70'-120' steady state pieces holding rates from 16spm to 22spm, and not really pushing any harder than 2k+25. Of course, then you need the hard intervals and pieces like 8x500m/2'r, 10x3'/1'r, 4x1k/4'r, 5x1500m/6'r, 4x2k/7'r and other intervals are great for that.

It's okay to have maybe one long distance piece per week at a more challenging pace, but you will have the best results from steady work at lower rates (16-22spm) over long time periods.

[heptasyllabic]

The accepted logic at the elite levels is that for most programs, the hard stuff (i.e. intervals and AT work) is not hard enough and the easy stuff (distance rowing that accounts for most of the volume) is not easy enough. You honestly don't want to do your distance rowing (anything more than an hour) faster than 2k+25, and that's the hardest you should be doing it. Ideally you want 70'-120' steady state pieces holding rates from 16spm to 22spm, and not really pushing any harder than 2k+25.

Can you expand on this? I have started doing longer distance slower rows within prescribed heart rate bands and it feel so utterly useless to pull so "lightly" for so long, even though it is about 2k+25 for an hour...Am I just not seeing the big picture?

[ausrwr]

I'd say Paul's pretty on the money. Depending on what the session's trying to elicit in terms of training response, 2k + 25 (depending on rate - 16-18) would be fine for a long UT2 session. But you do need to take into account your training zones.

In that we all differ in what a session takes from us, it's worth working out max HR, and perhaps doing a step test to take a look at your HR curve against watts. From that, you can estimate threshold paces and speeds, and build your sessions around that.

We do 1 or 2 sessions a week that might crank the HR above threshold, and pretty much everything other than that is at under 80% of MHR, even to the extent of keeping bike commute under 70%.

For me, at a current 2k of 6:04, (1:31 pace), that ends at being:
UT2 sessions < 160 HR - 1:48 - 1:50 (R 16 - 20) (2k + 17-19) (ex. session 2 or 3*30 mins)
UT1 sessions 160 < HR > 175: 1:46 - 1:43 (R 22-24) (3*20 mins/2*25 mins)
AT sessions: 175 < HR > 185: 1:43 - 1:38 (R24 - 28) (30 mins R24/3*10 mins)
TR sessions: HR high... : 1:33 - 1:28 ( 6*3 mins on/3 off / 4*1k / 3*1500s)

The point to this isn't bragging, there's plenty of people a lot quicker than me, but more that as you train, you'll build up a bit of a dossier on what your body can and can't take: basically, what it needs to go fast.

Physiologically, even though it may not feel like you're doing enough, it's almost certain that you are. As an athlete, the struggle's almost always to hold yourself back - you want to see immediate results, but that's not always going to be the case.

There's a reason that the successful international programs (except for the Danes... mad buggers) are predominantly based on lots of long kms, not necessarily that hard. As Paul says, they give you the room to push hard when you need it, and additionally, you can actually recover from them.

Look at it like foundations - the broader they are, the higher you can build.

[jlawson58]

I did my longest row ever today by 50% (15k vs 10k) and did it at 10k test pace + 14 sec (so faster than bloomp's recommendation but slower than Moos3eguy's rec). That was not too hard but was definitely a good workout. I was in UT2 but only about 3 sec from the beginning of the UT1 band. My HR was about 70% of my max and I did it at the lowest rating ever (about 20). Even though I am just starting out and need to build a base I might still start some intervals since I think I will already try an erg that is in only 3 weeks here in town.

[heptasyllabic]

Physiologically, even though it may not feel like you're doing enough, it's almost certain that you are. As an athlete, the struggle's almost always to hold yourself back - you want to see immediate results, but that's not always going to be the case.

There's a reason that the successful international programs (except for the Danes... mad buggers) are predominantly based on lots of long kms, not necessarily that hard. As Paul says, they give you the room to push hard when you need it, and additionally, you can actually recover from them.

Look at it like foundations - the broader they are, the higher you can build.

Thanks for the really interesting post. I will be sticking with the longer slower workouts interspersed with sprint work for a while, I think. It is just hard to not "race your training" when surrounded by people doing just that!

[former lightweight]

Very good info here. One suggestion that might make identifying zones a little easier... take whatever your threshold pace is (say your PB pace for 10k), convert to watts, and then calculate your zones from that. The numbers are a little cleaner and because the erg gives you watts they're just as easy to use.

I would caution some against utilizing heartrate extensively as as a pacing tool or an indicator on when to back off. I've had this discussion with some of the elite cyclists I train with, and they argue that because heartrate is so variable dependent on environmental conditions, it can give you a false picture of your fitness day-to-day. There is also the issue of cardiac drift, or decoupling, which is described below:

"However, you may have noticed that on some of these long rides, your HR tends to drift up even when output remains the same. Or, if you are trying to maintain a Zone 2 effort, you may notice that when you look at the graph that even though HR remained the same, out (power or speed) went slowly down. In those cases, the lines on the graph representing HR and output no longer run parallel, but begin to drift apart.

The parallel relationship between heart rate and output (power or speed) is referred to as “coupling.” When they are no longer parallel in a workout they have “decoupled.” Excessive decoupling would indicate a lack of aerobic endurance fitness.

But how much is excessive? There is an acceptable amount of decoupling that can take place and still indicate a solid aerobic base. A good indication that a base fitness has been met is less than a 5% decoupling over a Zone 2 workout."

Heartrate could be helpful to determine a level of decoupling, but keep in mind you may see fairly large swings. As ausrwr notes, those long efforts at easy pace are definitely doing something so keep them going!

[gregsmith01748]

Inspired by the conversation here, i decided to do a half marathon L3 traing session today, guided by the advice.

So, back to the books. bloomp suggested that a good pace for distance training is 2k plus 25', for me that would be around 2:08. Others have suggested using heart rate bands. Others suggest derating the watts from your threshold 10k pace. Today, i decided to do it based on hr bands. My ut1 range is 140 to 152, so i decided to go at the piece with my normal vigor until i hit 150 and back the pace down to stay around 145.

The result was a nice workout, and some interesting hr trends. It took 7:00 to get my hr above 140 and another 3:00 or so to hit 150, by slowing from 1:58 to 2:00 pace, i brought my hr back to 147. Then over the next 45 minutes, my hr would slowly climb, and i would back off by another second to keep it around the 147 level. By the time i hit the one hour mark, i was pulling 2:05. Things stabilized there for the rest of the way, at least until i sprinted at the end. I couldn't help it, i really wanted to, i'm sorry. The average for the workout was a 146 hr and a 2:02 split, certainly slower than i have been pushing.

I think i like this idea. Give my 47 year old body a break and put all of my energy into the intervals.

[jlawson58]

Greg- you will probably react differently to the workout than I did since you are much more highly trained, but I was surprised how sore I was today compared to how relatively easy it felt yesterday. My arms are pretty sore; my glutes, inner thighs, and psoas are slightly sore; my back and shoulders feel better than after my normal workout.