Does cycling power transfer to erg power

[markman]

As I anxiously await the arrival of my Model D (hopefully Monday) I have been researching training plans to help me be ready to row a halfway competitive 2k on February 12th, here in Atlanta. I'll only have limited time, just over 8 weeks, to prepare and I still plan on riding 2-3 days a week.

I'm planning on using a heart rate/power based program to train. I've trained with power on my bike for the last 4 years and have a pretty good idea of my capabilities. I've tested myself numerous times to know that my sustainable watts for "time trial" efforts (60 minutes) are 280. For a 5 minute effort I'm able to hold 330 watts. I managed to pull off a 10k time trial a couple of years ago where I averaged 315 watts for 15 minutes (don't ask me how). Knowing those numbers I looked up the 500m Pace/Watts conversion over on the UK site and it seems like 300 watts could get me just under 7 minutes for a 2k. I guess I'm wondering how closely will those on-bike numbers translate to rowing?

Any cyclists out there with some feedback?

[Carl Watts]

You will have the required leg and cardio development but your upper body is not going to know what hit it.

That power is now transfered through your core, arms and shoulders to the handle and numerious upper body muscles that are not required on a bike come into play (should I clarify road cyclist, if your track your going to be built differntly and would make the transition to the Erg easier)

I wouldn't get upset at facing a small step backwards in terms of power output until your body adapts and give yourself some training time to avoid injury.

Lets us know how you go on the Erg as it will be interesting.

[markman]

You will have the required leg and cardio development but your upper body is not going to know what hit it.

That power is now transfered through your core, arms and shoulders to the handle and numerious upper body muscles that are not required on a bike come into play.

I wouldn't get upset at facing a small step backwards in terms of power output until your body adapts and give yourself some training time to avoid injury.

The upper body work is one of the main reasons I got the erg. I need to work on upper body strength/endurance. I plan on taking a couple of weeks to get used to it and then I hope I can fit in 2-4 sessions a week during the winter months. Is it unrealistic to think I can do a decent 2k in February given that I'll only have 8 weeks?

[Nosmo]

1) objectively measured power using strain gauges and measurments of chain movement are about 25W more then the power measured at the flywheel. 2) cycling is a more efficient motion. If you can do 300W cycling, you will do less then 275W on the erg, probably closer to 250.

[markman]

1) objectively measured power using strain gauges and measurments of chain movement are about 25W more then the power measured at the flywheel. 2) cycling is a more efficient motion. If you can do 300W cycling, you will do less then 275W on the erg, probably closer to 250.

That makes some sense although my power meter measures watts at the rear hub, not through the chain. I love to test myself so the erg will be a "fun" way to do that. I have always seemed to do well at pushing myself while at the edge of exhaustion, as long as it is an effort longer than 3-5 minutes (I'm definitely not a sprinter). Hopefully I'll have some concrete numbers by next Saturday.

Any suggestions on the best way to test myself so I can build an effective training plan? Is it the O'Neill 4 minute test, a max heart rate test, or something else?

[Citroen]

The biggest problem with the ergo isn't leg strength (which is built well by rowing). The problems are cadence and alternation.

On the rower you'll be rowing with both legs driving at the same time at somewhere between 20 and 30 strokes per minute. On the bike you drive with each leg in turn at somewhere between 60 and 100 revolutions per minute. There's a big difference between those two actions. It can take lots of miles to go from winter rowing to summer cycling. It can be very hard to get your legs spinning at 100 cadence compared to 20spm rowing.

[markman]

The biggest problem with the ergo isn't leg strength (which is built well by rowing). The problems are cadence and alternation.

On the rower you'll be rowing with both legs driving at the same time at somewhere between 20 and 30 strokes per minute. On the bike you drive with each leg in turn at somewhere between 60 and 100 revolutions per minute. There's a big difference between those two actions. It can take lots of miles to go from winter rowing to summer cycling. It can be very hard to get your legs spinning at 100 cadence compared to 20spm rowing.

Yeah, I could see how the cadence difference between the two might be a problem. I still plan on riding 2-3 times a week over the winter so hopefully that will help me.

[former lightweight]

Hey markman, I just saw this thread after posting in the thread about trainingpeaks, wattage, and cycling. I've got a background in both and here are some of my 'quantitative' observations. The wattage on the bike, as folks note above, is going to be much, much higher than on the erg. To give you some idea... my best TT on the bike for 30 min is 368w which I did a few months ago. Although I am more 'fit' now than I've ever been, if I were to sit down on the erg and pull a 6k, I would be lucky to hold 1:48 or so... although my PR from my competitive rowing days is 20:14 or just over a 1:41. I don't have that split-watts calculator handy so I'm not sure what that might look like in watts, but it is well slower than 368w! My biggest problem after having moved back to doing work on erg is not only the relative inefficiency, but also simply technique and quickly turning the handle around at the catch... I've lost that touch and am paying for it!

Like Carl says, ease into the rowing and try and throw in some load bearing weight lifting work with your upper body. I have tweaked my back, shoulders, and so on from trying to pick up the erg too quickly after mostly training on the bike.

[wec]

in my experience, the watts aren't consistent absolutely or relatively. i would estimate that my erg watts are around 80% of my cycling watts for longer intervals. however, as the effort intensity increases, so does the delta. meaning that my one minute effort on the erg is closer to 70% of my cycling minute effort. perhaps this has to do with my still under construction form, but my guess is that, physiologically, there is something to this as well.

perhaps since power is, by its definition, deltaW/deltaT, the time spent during recovery is wasted. not only is the time wasted, but there is some power being generated by your body during that period that is simply not measured by the erg. at least, that is my justification for consistently not being able to put out the same watts on the erg as on my bike.

caveat: i am a n00blet at this, so someone please correct me if this is wrong.

[Bob S.]

there is some power being generated by your body during that period that is simply not measured by the erg.

And that is going to vary quite a bit, since it is dependent both on the stroke rate and the weight of the person doing it. A heavy rower with a high stroke rate is going to be producing a lot of work just accelerating and decelerating the body and that work will not be measured by the erg monitor. This point has been brought up before on other threads of this forum.

Bob S.

[jamesg]

Any suggestions on the best way to test myself so I can build an effective training plan? Is it the O'Neill 4 minute test, a max heart rate test, or something else?.

Suggest you do a 500m flat out test; then 2 days later a 2k test at 10-11% slower (or 30% less Watts); then use the Interactive, available on C2 UK. It'll give you maybe a 16 week schedule, but as you only have 8 weeks you could use the first 2 (for technique and endurance) and then the last 6; or 4-4, as you like.

The Wolverine L4s are also fun and help time fly while obliging concentration on good rowing.

The ½ and 2k tests must be done with full length strokes after good warm-up. Flat out (for the 500) does not mean the highest possible rating, 90s can feel a long time at the end. In the 2k start slow and keep your technique under control.

[hjs]

As I anxiously await the arrival of my Model D (hopefully Monday) I have been researching training plans to help me be ready to row a halfway competitive 2k on February 12th, here in Atlanta. I'll only have limited time, just over 8 weeks, to prepare and I still plan on riding 2-3 days a week.

I'm planning on using a heart rate/power based program to train. I've trained with power on my bike for the last 4 years and have a pretty good idea of my capabilities. I've tested myself numerous times to know that my sustainable watts for "time trial" efforts (60 minutes) are 280. For a 5 minute effort I'm able to hold 330 watts. I managed to pull off a 10k time trial a couple of years ago where I averaged 315 watts for 15 minutes (don't ask me how). Knowing those numbers I looked up the 500m Pace/Watts conversion over on the UK site and it seems like 300 watts could get me just under 7 minutes for a 2k. I guess I'm wondering how closely will those on-bike numbers translate to rowing?

Any cyclists out there with some feedback?

The big trouble at first will be upperbody strenght. You heart and lungs are plenty strong but you back, hands are absolute not. It will take time to build that strenght.

[Carl Watts]

I would be looking at some distance rows starting out at 2:15 pace and working on the correct technique to start with.

Then begin to try and drop your rating (while maintaning the same or faster pace) which if your like everyone else starting out will be way too high and you will be flying up and down the slide going nowhere fast.

Set the damper at 5 or 6 to start with and not at 10.

Most of all, try and resist the temptation to get a Sub 7 2K on your first row !

[markman]

Thanks everybody for the input! I've done a few workouts on the C2 and have made some improvement in increasing power while reducing stroke rate. I think I'm pretty comfortable with a 22-24 rate. I did a few 500 intervals tonight and managed 1:53-1:54 without feeling like I was really pushing it. My upper body will take some time to get going but so far I feel I'm on the right track. I may do the 500 and 2k tests in the next week or so and then build a plan from that.

[H2O]

Thanks everybody for the input! I've done a few workouts on the C2 and have made some improvement in increasing power while reducing stroke rate. I think I'm pretty comfortable with a 22-24 rate. I did a few 500 intervals tonight and managed 1:53-1:54 without feeling like I was really pushing it. My upper body will take some time to get going but so far I feel I'm on the right track. I may do the 500 and 2k tests in the next week or so and then build a plan from that.

Plan on rating 32 for the 2K.
I would use a very light setting (DF 100).

I would be surprised if you could not get under 7mins.