Concept2 Forum

A couple weeks ago I got some feedback on my stroke [VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooq2kMPkoFA]
Main issues highlighted were overcompression, knees too wide and back too rigid on recovery.

I think that I have corrected the above three issues, except for overcompression [VIDEO https://youtu.be/MU4AtIWvL0o]
My torso still seems to be out of sync either moving before I straighten legs on drive or only moving after I break legs on recovery. Any tips or drills on how to focus on correcting this?

This was my thread from a couple weeks ago: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107818 Alissa pointed out the most valuable detail for me, Hamstring flexibility. I realized I couldnt straighten my legs, not even close, and maintain a torso forward position. I realized that because of stiff hamstrings it was very difficult and uncomfortable to not start moving the torso early. Take a broom handle and hold it behind you touching your head, upper spine and tail bone. Lock your knees and bend at the hips maintaining all three contact points on the broom handle. Two weeks ago I could barely make it to 45deg. Today Im almost 90 and it is far easier to row with "more" proper form. $0.02

Nick, I don't see much wrong there. You're not lunging at the catch so don't start now just to force fwd lean. Take another look at your wrists at the finish. Can you keep your hands in alignment with your forearms? if so, do that. Recovery could be slower to provide more rest in prep for a stronger, faster drive. Recovery to drive ratio looks to be about 1:1; try to work toward 2:1 or 3:1.

Thanks guys.

@Tim K. I know that flexibility is an issue. It is good to hear that you have had success with stretches. I'll definitely try to incorporate more straight back hamstring stretches.

@jackarabit I am able to maintain the 2:1 or 3:1 at lower stroke rates, but am unsure how to speed up spm without cutting into recovery time to achieve that. Thoughts?

Nick, I agree that 32-34 spm requires a lower ratio. I'm below average height and can hold 2:1 @ 22spm. Those with a long fast stroke can easily hold 3:1 at 20-21spm. This is another parameter that requires working towards an ideal but not necessarily achieving that ideal quickly.

BermyNick wrote:Thanks guys.

@Tim K. I know that flexibility is an issue. It is good to hear that you have had success with stretches. I'll definitely try to incorporate more straight back hamstring stretches.

@jackarabit I am able to maintain the 2:1 or 3:1 at lower stroke rates, but am unsure how to speed up spm without cutting into recovery time to achieve that. Thoughts?

BermyNick,

Hi and good morning.

you are still tucking your hand under .

People have mentioned that you are doing this yet you seem to have missed it.

it may not have a significant impact on your time. it all depends.
over time, it does appear that this specific movement leads to some injury though.

I do realize that it is quite difficult to change 3 or 4 things so this wrist thing may be something that you are working on.

I wish that I could row as good as this latest version. Best of luck at the Crash B's.

markinnb wrote: you are still tucking your hand under .

Hey @markinnb, thank you for pointing that out, I had definitely glossed over that as I was thinking about the catch, not the finish. I am not sure how to correct what you are talking about. Should I be keeping my elbows in more? Finishing with the handle lower?

Hi BermyNick!

Could you have your videographer do a straight from the side view next time? (This three-quarter view is artistic, but makes it difficult to see some of the technique points we might otherwise be able to help you with.) And do continue to wear shirts with vertical stripes on the sides, as (combined with a side view) that will help us see the pivot point for your backswing.

I don't really see the hand issue, but you can cue yourself to keep your wrists flat with a drinking straw and a piece of paper tape (or something else you don't mind having on your skin. So called vet-wrap works too.). If you're lifting your hands, tape the straw to the back of your wrist/forearm, so that the straw extends over your hand, so that if you raise your hand you'll feel the end of the straw. If you're dropping your hands, affix the straw to the bottom of your wrist so that you'll feel the end of the straw in the palm of your hand if you drop them.

HTH,

Alissa

BermyNick wrote:

markinnb wrote: you are still tucking your hand under .

Hey @markinnb, thank you for pointing that out, I had definitely glossed over that as I was thinking about the catch, not the finish. I am not sure how to correct what you are talking about. Should I be keeping my elbows in more? Finishing with the handle lower?

this wrist movement ( lateral as well as perpendicular ) is mentioned in most technique courses/books/online instruction. it is always suggested that the rower refrain from doing it.

yours appears to be mostly perpendicular. just the up and down thing.

the little wrist curl you are doing: many people do it. many of these people develop either: forearm/ elbow tendinitis, carpal tunnel syndrome or both. among other things. Another thing that may develop is loss of range of motion of your wrist and/or fingers. this may go unnoticed since wrist/fingerflexibility may not be something that is ever required, it depends of what other things you do.

in order to do that wrist curl, you have been excessiveky gripping the handle. it is quite likely that you are gripping it too hard. those people that do this, have a 'death grip' on the handle. if this technique is used consistently, then this will lead to trouble over time. The grip should be looser. a little or a lot depends on how hard you are gripping this.

Keep in mind that this trouble is a repetitive thing and depends on how long and how often you do this. and if you are doing any rehab to release/reduce the damage that you may be causing.

if you loosen your grip somewhat , you won't be able to do that wrist movement.

once you understand the reasons for NOT doing something, you will take steps to prevent yourself from doing it. Unless the issue is 100% anatomical, there shouldn't be anything special done to get you to stop. in the next few days, look at your wrist when you are at the finish. is it straight or 'under'.
on the next stroke, do it better.

I have found that when you give the rower the right information, they will take steps to improve themselves.

loosen your grip. < not suggesting that you let go of the handle >
watch your hands at the finish- it take a fraction of a second.
<take a look to see what you are doing>.
then perform the next stroke with this new awareness.
get used to what it feels like- lighter grip and better wrist forearm alignment.
focus on that wrist action . <- at that moment. be aware of it. overtime, the proper technique will replace that previous and become second nature.


tell me, do you feel any tension in your neck traps? which area (s) do you seem to need more stretching out, relative to the others.

If you don,t have trouble in your wrists I would not worry much about it. The last part of the stroke is pretty soft, it won,t put much strain on your body. Otw is different an oar is not a small handle. I have pains almost everywhere sometimes from pulling hard, but never in the lowerarms though.

hjs wrote:If you don,t have trouble in your wrists I would not worry much about it. The last part of the stroke is pretty soft, it won,t put much strain on your body. Otw is different an oar is not a small handle. I have pains almost everywhere sometimes from pulling hard, but never in the lowerarms though.

pain everywhere?

the issue with using yourself as an example Henry is that you appear to be almost indestructible. You are a machine.

markinnb wrote:

hjs wrote:If you don,t have trouble in your wrists I would not worry much about it. The last part of the stroke is pretty soft, it won,t put much strain on your body. Otw is different an oar is not a small handle. I have pains almost everywhere sometimes from pulling hard, but never in the lowerarms though.

pain everywhere?

the issue with using yourself as an example Henry is that you appear to be almost indestructible. You are a machine.

Nono Mark, really thats not true, I have a strong head proberly, and often recover or try to, but I won,t even begin to mention pains I have had this year. I do keep an ok overall fitness though thats true, so no complaining, just keep on trucking .... With some trouble/pain we still can train on.

nick,

the issue is one of prevention. Everyone has made enough mistakes in his/her life to know that it would have been better to not have done the thing that lead to the problem in the first place ! it makes sense.

Here's a vid from Concept 2 Australia describing proper rowing technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ82RYIFLN8

what is interesting is that for the first 30 seconds or so of the vid, the rower has what appears to be a " passive wrist roll ". It may be due to her anatomy . it doesn't appear that she is actively doing a wrist curl. She isn't rowing completely correctly: her elbows are not going back far enough and she appears to be purposefully rowing high. This leads to her forearm and upper arm bunching up when it's supposed to open. Due to her anatomy, in order to keep the handle relatively straight, she must do the roll. her elbows are just missing full drawback, her forearm is actually at an upward angle so her wrist must drop in an attempt to keep the handle straight.

after the short break, she is doing a much better job at bringing her elbows straight back - so the angle at the elbow/forearm is more open' -she no longer needs to do the wrist roll. her elbows are going maybe 2-3 cm farther back. it doesn't take much.

Then at 2:01 onwards the rower is back to bending your hands under her wrist during the stroke. The narrator says " draw the handle back to the lower ribs in a straight line " but it appears that she is pulling a bit higher - into her chest/pecs: thereby closing upper arm/forearm angle.

at one point, the narrator explicitly says something to the effect of " keep your wrist and hands in line with the forearm " sort of thing. so don't bend your hand under at the wrist. it's somewhere in there.

At her power output, it probably isn't going to do any damage. But she appears to be a strong rower : over time, that passive wrist motion may lead to some issues.

this is not nitpicking : the people on here have a much more focused approach to their training. Combination of higher volume, higher intensity, time /session, # sessions. The likelihood of some repetitive stress trauma & over use injury is higher in this group. people who row at 20 watts for 30 minutes 3 times per week don't have to be concerned to the degree as someone who is more keen to see how far they can go.

I took it for granted that the high, frontal camera position would not prevent problems with seeing what Nick is doing but of course Alissa is correct that it does. Training videos are almost always shot from a position normal to the erger's progress along the beam and from a height roughly 50% of the erger's height seated. I agree that the hands do not produce the "mantis" position. There is a lateral displacement that Mark notes, possibly due to the elbows moving out to the side at the finish. I think the time of recovery to time of drive ratio can be determined with reasonable confidence also.

sometimes , these things appear to be ' how to train a frog to jump"
where every little thing is broken down to be analyzed so as to maximize the effort and at the end, the frog can't jump anymore. it's too busy thinking about every small thing that it was previously doing wrong that it can no longer do the one thing it was doing right.

iirc, your forearms were flat- so you have a direct line of transmission of your power. ( the angles junk. ).

Nick, I do suggest that even if no effort is made to change your hand wrist forearm alignment- you should do a lot of flexibility / stretching exercises for your hands, fingers, wrist , and forearm so that you maintain a high degree of mobility in those areas.

I now have to chase a neighbors cat from my backyard... the thing takes down the birds and squirrels that are in the trees. I've chosen to side with the squirrels and birds.