Help me understand drag factor

[woody350ep]

Ok, can someone help me understand the drag factor thing a little more?

I now know to keep the drag factor between 110-140. I do that. My question is this. If I have the drag factor at 110 and row a 2:00/500m, what beneficial/negative effect would I have if I did the exact same effort at a drag factor of 140? Would my time be faster or slower? Would it wear my body faster or slower? Would I need to work harder to maintain the same time at a 140 DF? Just what exactly would the difference be?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that my time would be faster at a higher DF, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks for clearing me up a bit

[David Pomerantz]

I'm probably the least qualified guy to answer this question on the forum, but what the heck. My understanding is that the drag factor is irrelevant: 2:00/500m is the same workload at any drag factor. I believe your spm might differ depending on the DF, but the overall accomplishment is the same. Wrongly or rightly, I think of it like gears on a bike. No one cares what gear you ride in, all that matters is who gets there first.
With the above said, I agree that I sometimes feel more comfortable at a higher DF than a lower one and sometimes think my strongest pieces are when the DF is high. My guess is that this is more perception than reality. Interested to hear the responses from the guys who know lots more!

Dave

[Citroen]

This should explain it: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38

[woody350ep]

That link explains drag factor, but not really what I am asking. I am wondering what the difference would be on the display using the same spm and exerting the same energy when using 110 DF or 140 DF. Would you travel less distance per stroke with a higher DF? Would you be using your legs more at a higher DF, thus exhausting you more at a higher DF? I have been using about 120 DF.

It seems that the higher the DF, the faster the wheel will slow down, thus making you use more energy to keep the same split.

[Cyclist2]

Since the sprocket is a fixed size, then the distance the wheel spins is the same every time if the same length of chain goes over it every time, regardless of the drag factor. The DF only changes how hard it feels on the stroke and how fast the wheel slows down on the recovery. You control the SPM, the power you put into it, and the length of your recovery. The bicycle analogy is good - you can go up a hill in an easy gear and spin fast or you can go up in a hard gear, which requires lots more power on each pedal stroke but there are less of them. You end up at the top of the hill in either case. A high DF is like a hard gear, a low DF is like an easy gear. Your choice, 500 meters is 500 meters either way. The reason a DF of 110-140 is used mostly is because that seems to be similar to a boat feel, and is comfortable for most people. Again, your choice. I use different DF's for different workout goals.

[ranger]

A high DF is like a hard gear, a low DF is like an easy gear.

No, not really.

There is no relation between drag factor in rowing and gears in cycling.

Rowing is a full-body exercise, with intermittent effort, and a number of levers with different lengths and strengths.

Nothing like this occurs in cycling.

If you are a novice, as you seem to be, rowing at high df. favors your core/back and arms; rowing at a low drag factor favors you legs.

If you have balanced leverage, your legs are your longest and strongest levers, so you should learn to row at low drag.

Bodies come in many different shapes and sizes, however.

If your legs are short and weak, but your core/back and upper body are massively strong, you might prefer high drag--at least, until you grow some longer legs and strengthen them up.



Most basketball players would be better, too, if they just waited until they grew another two feet.



ranger

[woody350ep]

If you are a novice, as you seem to be, rowing at high df. favors your core/back and arms; rowing at a low drag factor favors you legs.

If you have balanced leverage, your legs are your longest and strongest levers, so you should learn to row at low drag.

Bodies come in many different shapes and sizes, however.

If you legs are short and weak, but your core/back and upper body are massively strong, you might prefer high drag.

ranger

I am a novice, yes. I guess I'll just keep rowing at the same DF I have been then. My legs ARE shortish, but also quite strong. The same goes for my upper body. I am a pretty solid guy all around. I just haven't been on the machine enough to recognize the difference in the DF ratings as I rowed, and I haven't experimented either because I was just keeping the # in the range I was told was best. I was mostly looking for the change in that range.

I'm mostly going at slower rate right now than I feel I could so that I can build up my aerobic level a bit more.

Thanks for trying to clear it up some guys.

[Citroen]

Higher drag means the fan slows more quickly and needs more force to accelerate it.
Lower drag means the fan will continue spinning for longer, so is more likely to still be spinning when you start the next stroke.

So that has two effects.
1. Low drag means you'll get more from the early part of the stroke, so your legs will do more work.
2. High drag means you'll put more strain on your lower back as your stroke moves to core/arms.

Since legs are stronger than core and arms combined you want to do most of the stroke using legs.

The monitor calculates the drag factor with a bunch of complex maths - drag factor is most useful when comparing machines. If you always set it to the same df then a model C, model D or model E will give consistent and repeatable results. For your own machine check it once a month. For a machine in a public gym check it every time.

Altitude can have a significant effect on drag factor. The other thing is dust and cruft in the fan cage, as the fan clogs up the drag factor will reduce so it gives an indication when periodic maintenance is needed.

[ranger]

Actually, there are a bunch of other complexities that revolve around drag factor.

These also have no correlate in biking.

On the erg, the faster you push and pull, the more force you generate, as in cycling.

But since, in rowing, work is intermittent and generated against a resisting medium, the harder you pull, and the lower the drag, the shorter the drive and the longer the recovery.

If the drive is short and the recovery long, you are resting a lot more than working.

But ironically, the drive can only be shortened if you are pushing and pulling hard, that is, fast.

This means that, in rowing, virtue is its own (double, triple, quadruple, etc.) reward.

As you learn to generate more force with quickenss, you don't work as long and you rest more.

Furthermore, if the drag is low, as has been mentioned, the wheel spins freely when you are not working, just as a boat will run freely after you take a stroke OTW and are recovering your oars.

Low drag enhances all of these things.

(1) It makes it so your legs, your longest and strongest levers, can fire off quickly and easily against low resistance, generating force with quickness and length rather than some sort of unnatural grunt with a short, weak lever working slowly against high resistance.

(2) The quicker you push and pull, the shorter the drive becomes. You work less!

(3) The shorter the drive becomes, the longer the recovery becomes. You rest more!

(4) The lower the drag, the more freely the wheel spins (or boat runs), so as you are resting more, you go further on the recovery (the wheel spins more) than you/it would if you were rowing at high drag.

ranger

[wjschmidt2]

Last season, I had my best times trials at a 125-130df. Anything higher I could not maintain the same pace. Just felt like I was pushing/pulling too much resistance.

This year I am working with a slightly lower drag factor in training (116 to 118df for my L4 and L3 workouts) and 120df for the L1 and L2 workouts. Seems to be working just fine.

Bill

[Alissa]

Why not try it out?

I used to do a drill where you change the damper setting (and thus the associated drag factor) every so often. Keep the stroke rate the same, and try to maintain the same pace. Pick a stroke rate that you think you can maintain. Neither particularly fast, nor particularly slow. Something in the low-20s would probably be good. Pick a pace you think you can hold for the whole drill.

Start with the damper at "zero" and move it up one damper setting after each minute. When you've done the piece at the highest damper rating, go back down through the various damper settings. When you've completed the last piece you'll have spent 20 minutes, and you'll have the answer to your question. (If 20 minutes is too long, cut the length of each segment down...)

The other focus during this drill needs to be on form. You'll notice that you have more trouble catching the flywheel at the start & finish, and have a harder time maintaining the proper posture for good form in the middle (when you're at damper 10).

Let us know what you think!

Alissa

etc: spelling

[ranger]

Last season, I had my best times trials at a 125-130df. Anything higher I could not maintain the same pace. Just felt like I was pushing/pulling too much resistance.

This year I am working with a slightly lower drag factor in training (116 to 118df for my L4 and L3 workouts) and 120df for the L1 and L2 workouts. Seems to be working just fine.

Bill

The issue is not just rowing at low drag (e.g.,118 df.) but being able to take advantage of the dynamics of low resistance given your available speed and leverage.

To drill on this, I like to practice rowing perfectly: 13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights.

Doesn't matter how you do this "practice," as long as you take a lot of strokes.

This sort of training teaches you how to recruit and then maximize the potential of all of your available levers with more and more quickness and precision.

It's fine to keep doing your WP Level 4 rowing, 1:56 @ 20 spm (11.2 SPI), but while you are doing this rowing, do a lot of drilling on 1:50 @ 20 spm (13.2 SPI), too.

ranger

[hjs]

Ok, can someone help me understand the drag factor thing a little more?

I now know to keep the drag factor between 110-140. I do that. My question is this. If I have the drag factor at 110 and row a 2:00/500m, what beneficial/negative effect would I have if I did the exact same effort at a drag factor of 140? Would my time be faster or slower? Would it wear my body faster or slower? Would I need to work harder to maintain the same time at a 140 DF? Just what exactly would the difference be?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that my time would be faster at a higher DF, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks for clearing me up a bit

The amount of work is pace/500 or watts, so if you give the same effort every drag will give the same pace. A lower drag will make the drive shorter though. A higher drag will make the drive slower.

Drag has to do with incoming air flow, the higher the drag the more airinflow and the more the fan slows down.
So a higher drag slows teh fan down more and every stroke you can more easily pick up the fan during the stroke and make speed.
At lower drag, the fan keeps spinning faster, so teh catch the fan you have to drive faster. Most people find higher drag eisier to do, you can get away with a slopier/slower stroke and still get a good pace.

Drag is not to compare with cycling and geers, this because with cycling you keep on pushing the hole time. In roing you only give pace during the drive, not during the recovery. So it is possible to use a low drag and low spm but still get a fast pace. In cycling that is never teh case. If you peddle slowly at low gear you cycle slowly.

In rowing you can use a hard fast drive and slow recover at low drag, this gives a fast pace.
You can also use a slow weak drive and fast recovery at high drag, this give a slow pace.

Everything in between is also possible.

[Carl Watts]

I wouldn't agree the DF has no connection with the anology of gears.

Take a cycle oval with fixed gearing, the gear ratio is chosen to optimise the best time which is linked to your cadence.

Karting with fixed gear ratio, sprocket on the engine chosen for best laptimes

Same with an Erg, you find the best DF that suits you to get the best time. There is no one DF that suits everyone or the DF would not have such a wide range of settings and everyone would be using the same DF.

Finding what suits you only comes from doing alot of rowing and it's likley to change the more rowing you do anyway. I started out with a DF of 167 with a very high 27-28spm and it has been coming down and down and now a 130 DF gives me the best results with an even lower rating of 21-23spm to acheive the same pace. Maybe 130 is not perfect for me but it must be pretty close.

I think it would be fair to say that many long term Erg users would find their DF requirement drops and their rating drops. I personally would put more importance in getting your rating correct over say a 6month period than worrying about trying to find the "Exact" DF.

One of the best things I have found on the net is this.

http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/conten ... e=hr_bands

The table now reflects nearly exactly my training bands and spm in the bands. All my training distance rows are done at 18-20spm and my 500M is done at 34 spm.This is an excellent reference and it is printed out and stuck on the wall above my erg with the associated Heart Rates hand written in as a column on the right hand side....perhaps someone from Free Spirits reading this could have all this come up on the same page that can be printed out.

[hjs]

I wouldn't agree the DF has no connection with the anology of gears.

Take a cycle oval with fixed gearing, the gear ratio is chosen to optimise the best time which is linked to your cadence.

drag is not gear. At a given gear and fixed cadence you have a given speed. On the erg there is no such thing, at a given drag and fixed rating you can get al kinds of speed.......

fast and slower rower often use an same drag and rating, but the endresult is totaly different.