Concept2 Forum

I have been doing a lot of ladders with varying stroke rates, but having a lot of trouble at the higher stroke rates. I am either:
1. pulling too hard and burning myself out,
2. breaking the knees too soon or pulling on the straps with my feet, and/or
3. shorten my stroke
in order to maintain the high stroke rate.

I feel comfortable up to 27 spm but any higher stroke rate and I can't maintain my split over 500m or my upper inner thighs start to hurt because pull on the straps in order to recover faster and maintain the high stroke rate.

I would appreciate any advice.

It's not clear what you're trying to do, nor why. The things you list are all serious faults.

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos

jamesg wrote:It's not clear what you're trying to do, nor why. The things you list are all serious faults.

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos

Indeed give more info. Age height weight. How fast do you go at different rates. Times you pull for different lenghts.

Pulling the straps is always poor, row strapless for a good bit of the time.

Very high ratings, above 35 will always be with a shorter stroke.

Instead of trying to maintain the same pace at higher rates, try to maintain the same work per stroke (wattage/stroke rate). There should not be much difference of work/stroke at different stroke rates. the length of the stroke should not vary except at very high rate sprints. The force applied to the handle should not vary much. Therefore the work per stroke should remain about the same. As a consequence of this, higher rates will invariably mean faster paces.

Bob S.

What's your wingspan ?
Tall guys don tend to have the Duracell bunny stroke count!- our power /stroke ratio is higher (it's all about the mass) that might count for the shortening of the stroke to hit the target spm

Thanks for the feedback. I response to some of the questions:

1. At lower stroke rates I feel like my technique is fine, it is at the higher spm that it goes to hell. I am just starting to erg although I competed on the water 15 years ago. The group I train with does time intervals at varying stroke rates. I find that I fall apart at the higher stroke rates. I haven't really tested myself but for those asking for some basis stats:

2. I am 6', 197lb, 32yo. This week I did a 1:38 for 500m (27spm) as someone told me to multiply by body weight by 1.8 to find a Watt target. I also held a 2:00 split over 25 mins (22, 24 and 26 spm). Neither of these two workouts were all out, but rather trying to maintain target splits.

I read around on the forums and am thinking about trying the following things to help ingrain better habits:
1. strapless at lower spm
2. arm -> arm & body -> half stroke -> full stroke warmup
3. full stroke with pause before breaking knees on recovery warmup.

Thoughts?

BermyNick wrote:
I read around on the forums and am thinking about trying the following things to help ingrain better habits:
1. strapless at lower spm
2. arm -> arm & body -> half stroke -> full stroke warmup
3. full stroke with pause before breaking knees on recovery warmup.

Thoughts?

1. Standard forum advice for tuning up your legs/torso/arms sequencing.
2. Recommended by a few on the forum, generally by OTW rowers. A standard OTW drill.
3. Another standard OTW drill, but I have never seen it mentioned on the forum as something to use on an indoor rower. Nothing wrong with it, I am just surprised that you had read it on the forum.

I am 6', 197lb, 32yo. This week I did a 1:38 for 500m (27spm) as someone told me to multiply by body weight by 1.8 to find a Watt target.

197 x 1.8 is 350W, a little tough for routine distance work. But at 27 for 500m that's a 13 W' stroke and very nice too, well done.

Suggest you use that 13 (or maybe 12) as a reference point. Then at lower ratings, for example rate 20 x 12 = 240W and a solid piece of work for distances. On the other hand pace 2.00 (203W) at 22-24-26 for 25 minutes implies you need to better define and use that potential 12 W stroke with a view to acquiring endurance.

Remember your rowing background, paddling hard at low ratings is no holiday, but does let us go fast when we want to.

FWIW, our cox would tell us "once your legs are doing everything they can, the only way to increase your stroke rate is to make your hands faster".

jamesg wrote:

I am 6', 197lb, 32yo. This week I did a 1:38 for 500m (27spm) as someone told me to multiply by body weight by 1.8 to find a Watt target.

197 x 1.8 is 350W, a little tough for routine distance work. But at 27 for 500m that's a 13 W' stroke and very nice too, well done.

Suggest you use that 13 (or maybe 12) as a reference point. Then at lower ratings, for example rate 20 x 12 = 240W and a solid piece of work for distances. On the other hand pace 2.00 (203W) at 22-24-26 for 25 minutes implies you need to better define and use that potential 12 W stroke with a view to acquiring endurance.

Remember your rowing background, paddling hard at low ratings is no holiday, but does let us go fast when we want to.

BW in lbs x 1.8 would be beyond my 2K PB, but not much. BW in kg x 1.8 would be a gentle UT2 training pace - perhaps that's what someone meant.

They definitely meant lbs x 1.8 = Watt target. As I am 197, I used 360W as my target and was fine for 500m. 1:38 splits is my target for the Crash Bs in 2 months, but I need to fix whatever it is that is causing me to pull on straps over 27 spm.

That's because you want to get forward for the next stroke. This means generating a force that we can call inertial, to accelerate our mass. There is a slight slope to the rail, and the chain pulls a little too, but beyond these two forces, we supply all the rest using the straps. If you pull in hard with your arms at the finish, at least you'll stop going backwards and can return more easily, distributing the action over swing forward to clear the knees and then slide.

Afloat, as you'll remember, it's different: we move the light boat and not heavy ourselves, so the inertial forces are much smaller.

The erg can be seen as a case study for engineers wondering why that man Newton is still around. But not IF he's still around, there's no doubt about it.

NB those forces needed to come forward make us do work, so we prefer to reduce them by keeping the rating and so speeds and accelerations as low as possible. The hard arm-finish means we do a little more work against the chain and a little less against the straps, so increases efficiency, by however little.

This is the best worded explanation of the movement on the erg I've seen:
https://youtu.be/UXnKyJdA01w

Have look on the forum and Youtube for correct and incorrect examples. If you find some you like, download them and watch frame by frame.
If you can pull 360W you're almost there.

BermyNick wrote:They definitely meant lbs x 1.8 = Watt target. As I am 197, I used 360W as my target and was fine for 500m. 1:38 splits is my target for the Crash Bs in 2 months, but I need to fix whatever it is that is causing me to pull on straps over 27 spm.

Strapless and can,t pull anymore. Your upperbody should come first back up.

27 for your height is not high, what drag do you use. Could be very high, that slows the strokes.

1.38 is not your training pace. If 1.38 is race goal, aerobic work should be done 20 seconds slower and longer ofcourse.

So I tried rowing strapless and I think it highlighted some spots where I was going wrong. I forced me to sit up a bit straighter and lift my chest at the finish of my drive as well as get my hands away a lot faster. I did a 25 minute ladder at approx 2:00 split with 5 minute stroke rate intervals (22/24/26/24/22). I felt like was able to maintain form and splits at 22 and 24 spm, but I was unable to maintain 26 spm. I think that this was due to fatigue (New Year's Day after all) as I could not maintain my hand speed at that stroke rate.

I definitely will keep practicing strapless to force me to keep my hands fast.