Concept2 Forum

Can anyone answer a question about the drag factor? If all other things being equal i.e. stroke rate, split time will I go further with a higher setting. At the C2 web site they say that it is like the gears on a bike.... but the higher the gear ratio the harder it is to push and the further you go. Is this the same for the erg.
thanks
Paolo

Essentially the short answer to your question is yes, however just like a bike where you choose a gear to get an optimum Cadence you need to change the lever and hence the Drag to suit. The early rowers actually had different sprocket sizes as the Flyheel design was open, hence the bike analogy. Now by by controling the airflow just a single 14 tooth sprocket is employed. Typically on a clean Erg, most experienced rowers end up using between 3 and 5 on the damper setting. If anything try and avoid high DF settings as this minimises the injury risk.

Drag is the same as gears, in the sense the lower the better. Set it to 2 and pull full length fast strokes, otherwise you won't be dong any work. Slow recovery, otherwise you'll be doing too much.

Paolo wrote:Can anyone answer a question about the drag factor? If all other things being equal i.e. stroke rate, split time will I go further with a higher setting. At the C2 web site they say that it is like the gears on a bike.... but the higher the gear ratio the harder it is to push and the further you go. Is this the same for the erg.
thanks
Paolo

The only thing that matters is split time. If that is the same, no matter what drag or rate, you will get the same endresult. Split 2.00 on drag 100 will give the same as split 2.00 at drag 150 or 200.

hjs.... yes I understand that the split, is the split, is the split, again going back to the gear analogy, if I have the same number of pulls do I go further at a higher setting. As Carl said the old ergs had a sprocket so you could set it to 21 teeth (easier less distance per pull) set it to 12 teeth (harder greater distance) so the question is, does the PM calculate the distance traveled per pull using the drag factor number as a multiple
thanks
Paolo

Yes, it uses the drag factor as a constant to adjust for flywheel deceleration. If that's indeed what you're asking.

Other things equal, you'll get more watts/faster pace displayed on the monitor the higher the drag factor. However other things are not easy to keep equal. At higher drag factor the flywheel is harder to accelerate at the beginning of the stroke and it also decelerates more during the recovery phase. For any given rower doing any specified piece, at a given drag factor and drive:recovery ratio there's going to be an optimum stroke rate that balances out the 'oomph' you can sustain on the drive with flywheel deceleration and the need for muscle rest on the recovery.

If what you want is the maximum possible watts/fastest possible pace on a given piece, row it at the highest drag factpr you can handle without compromising your technique and thereby risking injury. As others have pointed out, if what you want to do is train effectively, you'll do well to read the information available from C2 on drag factor and train at low- to mid-range drag settings.

Thanks Nav for your reply, ..first let me say that I have been training in the conventional way DG of 3 or 4.
I still do not have a definitive answer so I will try to rephrase the question. I am a former cyclist and when I trained and competed I would always push a much heavier gear than my team mates, it just suited my physiology, others would spin a much easier gear, as you know I would have less rpm’s than them but I would go further and faster. I guess the question is will a higher DF setting suite me better
Thanks again for all the replies
Paolo

Few topics are as personal (and hotly defended) as drag factor....

Take a look at http://concept2.co.uk/training/answers?id=40 over on the C2 UK Forum. Terry O'Neill is a former GB Olympic rowing coach, and speaks from a great deal of experience and authority. My instincts tell me that if you're used to higher loads cycling you'll probably like higher loads rowing. But as Tel will tell you when you read him, the only way to know for sure is to experiment with different settings.

Paolo wrote:hjs.... yes I understand that the split, is the split, is the split, again going back to the gear analogy, if I have the same number of pulls do I go further at a higher setting. As Carl said the old ergs had a sprocket so you could set it to 21 teeth (easier less distance per pull) set it to 12 teeth (harder greater distance) so the question is, does the PM calculate the distance traveled per pull using the drag factor number as a multiple
thanks
Paolo

The pm calculates how fast the fan slows down. The higher you have the drag, the faster this happens and also the harder is it to accelerate the fan. More air recistance. This means, that if you row at a given rate and pace combination, the higher your drag, is the more difference in fanspeed there is.
But rowing is not cycling, in cycling you have a constant power on the peddals, the one leg alternates with the other.
In rowing that is not the case, you have the drive and the recovery, you can only give energy in the drive. Given this, it os possible to row at a high drag and high spm but still row slow. Just use a weak slow drive and fast recovery. This is often what you see in gyms. People put the damper up high, go up and down the rail like a bunny, but don,t punt much energy down.
And you can also row at low drag and low spm but still row fast. Make a hard long drive and a relaxed recovery.

Just try a bit and you will find out, but rowing with the damper at 10 is not what you want. Try to lower the drag untill you find is slows you down. I myself use a low 110 drag and relative to my age/height can get ok ish paces still. In the top few % of the hwt rankings. I use low drag to protect my back/joints

Ps you are talking about drag factor 3/4. If you have new clean machine this will give you a drag of about 125 ish, but on older, dusty machine much lower, so the lever setting is not dragdactor, you have to look at each individual machine what it's current drag is. I have see drags of 80 on lever 10, this should be drag 200 orso!

hjs wrote:
Ps you are talking about drag factor 3/4. If you have new clean machine this will give you a drag of about 125 ish, but on older, dusty machine much lower, so the lever setting is not dragdactor, you have to look at each individual machine what it's current drag is.

One minor quibble here. That is the case at sea level. Of course, Paolo gives London, Ontario, Canada, as his location. Google earth gives this as about 250 meters which for most purposes, including drag factor, is close enough to sea level to not matter much. At 1000 meters is a different matter, so I felt that I should bring this up for new erg users who may live at higher altitudes.

Bob S., quibbling nitpicker (or is nitpicking quibbler the proper redundancy?)

Bob S. wrote:

hjs wrote:
Ps you are talking about drag factor 3/4. If you have new clean machine this will give you a drag of about 125 ish, but on older, dusty machine much lower, so the lever setting is not dragdactor, you have to look at each individual machine what it's current drag is.

One minor quibble here. That is the case at sea level. Of course, Paolo gives London, Ontario, Canada, as his location. Google earth gives this as about 250 meters which for most purposes, including drag factor, is close enough to sea level to not matter much. At 1000 meters is a different matter, so I felt that I should bring this up for new erg users who may live at higher altitudes.

Bob S., quibbling nitpicker (or is nitpicking quibbler the proper redundancy?)

There is never such a thing as to much information. Simply always check the drag.

hjs wrote:Simply always check the drag.

Yes, indeed. That is the best advice of all.

Bob S.

Low drag favors the legs; high drag, the core, back, and arms.

If you can, emphasizing your legs is more effective and efficient.

So most accomplished rowers prefer low drag.

If you have short legs, only moderate talent for rowing, and a strong core and upper body, you might prefer a higher drag, though.

ranger

In my first season, 3 years ago, I did pretty well rowing at a DF greater than 200 (second at WIRC). The following season, at the advice of others, I reduced the drag to 110-125 and was unable to finish the season due to escalating back strain. And last year I had the same problem rowing at DF 125, giving up early in the year. This year I am back up to rowing at 190 at the moment. I still deal with a plague of back injuries. But whenever I test different DF's it seems that I am simply better at the highest DF, so that's what I'll stay with, at least for now.

It honestly doesn't seem to me that the high DF should lead to injury, at least for heavier and stronger rowers. It's not *that* heavy, certainly nothing like doing low-rep dead lifts or squats. This year I think I have improved my technique, which helps with injuries. More importantly, I am better tuned to the early signs of strain, and am more willing to back off when it starts. But I still make mistakes. Over one month ago I felt a muscle strain about 20 minutes into a 30-minute piece, but since I was going pretty well I wanted to finish the piece. I had to take 3 weeks off, and I'm still not back to where I was when I stopped, and have to be very careful. Injuries are major setbacks, and I would love to find a way to minimize them. But my personal experience leads me to believe that reducing the drag factor will not really help much in this cause.

thanks to everyone for your comments but the Question still is not answered so if you don't mind I will try again
.................this is not a training question................
OK so on my bike....in a high gear ratio lets say 400" of travel..... so for one revolution of the pedal I will travel 400" regardless of how hard I push the pedal or how fast I push the pedal I still only travel 400". If I use a lower gear ratio say 200" again one revalution of the pedal only yeilds 200" of travel again regardless of how hard I push or how fast I push. the simple fact that the pedal went around once yields the distance.......Now having said all that, back to the erg (and forget about training thats not the question) I set the damper to 1 I pull once my travel is 3 meters lets say ... I set the damper to 10 I pull once my travel is XXXX ............that is the question because, to my mind, if as C2 claims on they're web site that the drag is like gearing on a bike then the travel at 10 should be much further. I hope this make my queston a little clearer
again this is a machanical question not a training one.

thanks
Paolo