Concept2 Forum

Greetings all . . . I've been a Concept2 user since 2006 and have recently gotten back into rowing BIG TIME . . .

Never paid much attention to SPM before but I want to get much better at rowing than I have been so here's my question.

By the way . . . I'm 6'1', strong but fat (300 lbs), damper is at 5 and drag is 120-125.


I've read that you should aim for 18-21 strokes per minute . . . another poster said 20-25 . . . so low 20s seems to be a favorite goal.

If I row "naturally" at 20 SPM I will be rowing at around a 2:45 (500m). Now, by "naturally" I mean just a sort of unforced rhythm . . . the same way one has a natural rhythm when he sets off walking around the park or swimming across the lake.

If I focus real hard on my form (while still staying at 20 SPM) I go faster . . . maybe 2:25 - 2:35.

if I focus on giving it a harder effort (while still staying at 20 SPM) I go faster . . . maybe 2:15 - 2:20.

But that's it. For me to get to 2:00 or 1:50, I have to increase my SPM . . . to 25-30 or beyond.

So I'm not really sure what I'm trying to accomplish here. Am I supposed to stay at 20 SPM and just learn to pull harder so I can get to 2:00/low 20s SPM . . . or is it normal to increase SPM as one goes faster? If so, then why all the emphasis on the low 20s SPM?


It seems that managing SPM is part of the bigger game of exercising on the Concept 2 but frankly, I'm not sure how to use the concept . . . I can't understand the value of it.

Hope that's not too confusing!

John

Hi John,
First, you're doing the right thing exercising! Good for you!

SPM.. you're going to find lots of opinions on this one, here's mine: stay in the 20-25 range.
There is nothing wrong with higher than 25 for short, high intensity rows like a 2k
No real reason at this point in your rowing to go less than 20, when you get a couple million meters in, and you're looking to build power with pieces like 30 minutes at 19 SPM, then yes.
FWIW, I do the vast majority of my rowing 22-24SPM, pieces of duration 30min to 40 min.

Even more important however, is consistency. erging 3-4 times a week consistently, week on week, month on month.. Staying with it for the long haul. To that end, I would recommend getting RowPro and training online with the rest of us! No better motivator than knowing that guys are waiting for ya.
Free evaluation copy at: http://www.digitalrowing.com/downloads/
-chad

As above.

You will probably have to go at 25-28 at the present time if you want to improve your pace, however over time as you become fitter you will find you can put more power into each stroke and begin to drop your rating or SPM.

Eventually you will find yourself back down at 20 SPM and going at 2:00 pace. The more you improve the lower your rating will become and your pace will increase. Loosing some weight will also help you lift the rating when doing the shorter 2K. At the present time just stay where you feel comfortable, keep the heart rate low and build distance to help with your weight loss & fitness. Try a higher damper setting if you have strength and not speed to get a drag of 160 and over a few months begin to drop it back down to where you have it now.

So I'm not really sure what I'm trying to accomplish here. Am I supposed to stay at 20 SPM and just learn to pull harder so I can get to 2:00/low 20s SPM . . . or is it normal to increase SPM as one goes faster? If so, then why all the emphasis on the low 20s SPM?

I think it is push harder with your legs; not pull harder with your arms. If you push harder with the legs at 18 SPM you can reach 2:00 or better, but it is hard!! (For me anyway LOL -- but I can do it without straps as well.)

This post has gotten me thinking. I am not sure I understand the relationship between SPM and split times.

For example, I row a 2K at about a 1:46 pace at a rating of around 29-30 SPM. When I row longer pieces, my split times, of course get higher. For example my best HM is around a 2:00 split, but my rating stays up around 27-29 SPM.

I try to row at lower ratings during warmups and messing around, but I don't feel comfortable at anything lower than about 24SPM.

Part of my issue is just not knowing how to do it.
1. Given my 2K split times at 29-30 SPM, what split times should I be shooting for as I try to row purposefully at lower rates?

30 SPM --> 1:45
28 SPM --> ??
26 SPM --> ??
24 SPM --> ??
22 SPM --> ??
20 SPM --> ??
18 SPM --> ??

I am assuming that the answer will be "it depends" mainly what aerobic load I am trying to get. I guess I am looking for something in the UT1, AT range.

2. This is more mechanical. At lower rates, what slows down? I know the drive needs to stay fast, in order to hit the split. I have tried to just slow down my recovery, it feels like I am moving in "slo mo" and is tough to maintain for any length of time. I have also tried to pause, either at the catch, or at the beginning of recovery, but that seems to "bust my flow".

So, I ask you all -- How do I slow down?

Thanks
Greg

gregsmith01748 wrote: I try to row at lower ratings during warmups and messing around, but I don't feel comfortable at anything lower than about 24SPM.

...

So, I ask you all -- How do I slow down?

One way to learn lower stroke rates is to row without having your feet tied down. You have to fold your legs with your hamstrings rather than hauling yourself back to the front with your calves if they aren't tied to the machine. You will not fall off the back if everything is controlled and sequenced properly.

Then try the ultimate killer workout, the 30mins at 20spm.

There is no direct relationship between pace and SPM.

The PM monitor is essentially measuring power and using this to determine your pace. SPM is just an indication of how many times your moving up and down the slide per minute. This has no relationship to the amount of power your putting into each stroke.

What I have noted is that with increased fitness and power you are able to drop your rating or SPM. What you experience is a "Zone" in which you feel the most comfortable when it comes to SPM. Currently for me it is 20 SPM for my 60min but a mate of mine can rate lower than me at an even faster pace. Six months ago I was thrashing about at 27-28 SPM and going even slower than I am now.

A heart rate monitor is very useful to see how your HR changes with SPM for a set pace. 20 SPM is good for me as the HR drops slightly compared to say 18 SPM and 15 SPM is very hard work for me on a sub 2:00ave pace.

For me the idea is to get the rating down so that when I rate at 32 SPM I'm going at 1:30 pace. No point training at 27-28 SPM as this leave you no room to rate up.

gregsmith01748 wrote: Part of my issue is just not knowing how to do it.
1. Given my 2K split times at 29-30 SPM, what split times should I be shooting for as I try to row purposefully at lower rates?

30 SPM --> 1:45
28 SPM --> ??
26 SPM --> ??
24 SPM --> ??
22 SPM --> ??
20 SPM --> ??
18 SPM --> ??

I am assuming that the answer will be "it depends" mainly what aerobic load I am trying to get. I guess I am looking for something in the UT1, AT range.

2. This is more mechanical. At lower rates, what slows down? I know the drive needs to stay fast, in order to hit the split. I have tried to just slow down my recovery, it feels like I am moving in "slo mo" and is tough to maintain for any length of time. I have also tried to pause, either at the catch, or at the beginning of recovery, but that seems to "bust my flow".

So, I ask you all -- How do I slow down?

Thanks
Greg

For pace goals at certain spm search for "wolverine plan" You wil find what is called "L4" paces if you scrawl down

http://www.concept2.com/forums/wolverine_plan.htm

To keep e decnt pace at lower rate your drive has to stay firm but the recovery has to slow down, no stopping anywhere but just slowing down. Many Newbies erg like they bike, going in a 1 on 1 motion. Drive and recovery in the same time. The recovery should take longer. More in the 1:2 ratio drive/recovery. After the drive take the time and let the "boat" flow. In the beginning don,t focus on pace but just on taking good strokes.

gregsmith01748 wrote:At lower rates, what slows down? I know the drive needs to stay fast, in order to hit the split. I have tried to just slow down my recovery, it feels like I am moving in "slo mo" and is tough to maintain for any length of time. I have also tried to pause, either at the catch, or at the beginning of recovery, but that seems to "bust my flow".

Pausing is a no-no, unless you are in a boat doing pause drills to work on balance.

The recovery is indeed in slo mo. But since the recovery is a time to relax, there shouldn't be anything tough about it. My morning wakeup routine includes 10' on the erg with 2' minutes each at 12, 15, 18, 20, and 12spm. For the 12, 15, and 20spm segments, I often count out the seconds to myself - about 1" for the drive, including hands away past the knees, and 4, 3, or 2 seconds for the respective moves up the track to the catch. The 18spm doesn't fit into this of course. For that I watch the clock and try to time the catches at the zeros, just after the 7s, and a bit longer after the 4s.

Note that I am not trying to do the same pace at each rate. Not at all. For this range of rates, the pace gets faster as the rate goes up. There is a limit to that, of course, but it varies a lot depending on the rower and on the length of the piece. For the shorter time trials, most people have a peak efficiency rate somewhere in the 30s. For longer trials, say 10km and up, it is more likely to be in the 20s. For training sessions, the lower rates are preferred both for working on form and for doing long distances to improve aerobic capacity.

In regard to individual differences, it is mostly a matter of stroke length, which is determined by height and limb length. Someone with a short stroke length would naturally use higher rates.

Bob S.

John,

At the moment you are pulling short strokes. This makes it impossible to do any work with your legs, so you won't get fit or fast. At 6'1 (185cm), your overall stroke length should be around 140cm, 55".

A useful stroke exercise, also for warming up, is first to pull arms only for a few minutes (say rating 60), then add swing, with rating 30-40, then add some knee lift (AFTER the swing), gradually increasing lift until you reach shins vertical with your weight on your feet and your hands near the chain guard; rating 20 should make you sweat if you pull full length. Back straight and head up at all times.

If your shins are vertical at the catch and you are well forward with your shoulders, then it's possible to put a lot of leg work into each stroke. This will get you fit as well as moving fast.

If you want to watch the amount of work in each stroke (which is what rowing is all about, only work shifts boats), all you need do is divide power in Watts by rating. 10 could be a good number to aim for. Another useful index can be metres per stroke: the further the better, but 10 is ok. Best of all is the sweat index, the more the better.

Bob S. wrote:

gregsmith01748 wrote:At lower rates, what slows down? I know the drive needs to stay fast, in order to hit the split. I have tried to just slow down my recovery, it feels like I am moving in "slo mo" and is tough to maintain for any length of time. I have also tried to pause, either at the catch, or at the beginning of recovery, but that seems to "bust my flow".

In regard to individual differences, it is mostly a matter of stroke length, which is determined by height and limb length. Someone with a short stroke length would naturally use higher rates.

Bob S.

I'm 5'6". What should be my training SPM for 10K pieces?

Thanks to all of you for the really useful replies.

After I posted, I did some digging on the WP and found the material on pacing for different stroke rates. I think I will start to include one or 2 L4 workouts per week in my plan to try to consciously work on form and reducing the stroke rate.

Just so people don't have to do the digging, here is the relative pacing from the WP. He has it for all 2K paces, I just picked 1:45, because that's my current objective.

2K Pace Warmup/Recovery 16 18 20 22 24 26
01:45 02:28 02:11 02:07 02:03 01:58 01:54 01:49

I like the idea of counting off the recovery. I'll have to try that as soon as I get back to my erg (6700 miles away!). It is tough to maintain a training schedule with lots of business travel.

Atorrante wrote: I'm 5'6". What should be my training SPM for 10K pieces?

For training? My guess would be 24spm, making sure that you are getting the full length of your stroke and using the proper legs/back/arms sequence. If you use the clock as a crutch to help with timing (which I confess doing), you can hit the catch on a set distance piece at 0, 2+, 5, and 7+ seconds. For a set time piece, working your way down, it would be 0, a tad after 8, 5, and a tad after 3.

Alternatively, at 24 strokes/minute try to finish 6 strokes every 15 seconds such that you're starting a new set of 6 as the clock is turning 0 or 5.

If you're really obsessive, go to http://www.nch.com.au/metronome/tpsetup.exe and install this freeware digital metronome on a computer near the erg. Set it to 48 bpm (24 x 2), 2/2 time, no subdivisions, and row to the metronome. At 24 spm, one complete stroke will take four metronome beats. At that rating, you probably should try for something around a 1:3 drive:recovery ratio (~one metronome beat on the drive; ~three on the recovery).

Edit: stroke rate corrected....

NavigationHazard wrote:Alternatively, at 24 strokes/minute try to finish 12 strokes every 15 seconds such that you're starting a new set of 12 as the clock is turning 0 or 5.

If you're really obsessive, go to http://www.nch.com.au/metronome/tpsetup.exe and install this freeware digital metronome on a computer near the erg. Set it to 48 bpm (24 x 2), 2/2 time, no subdivisions, and row to the metronome. At 24 spm, one complete stroke will take four metronome beats. At that rating, you probably should try for something around a 1:3 drive:recovery ratio (~one metronome beat on the drive; ~three on the recovery).

Nav, are you outsourcing computation to ranger?

A group of 12 strokes every 15 seconds is 48 spm. And a stroke taking 4 beats @ 1/48th of a minute each is 12 spm...

Surely the truly obsessive ought to invest in a copy of ErgMonitor!