Concept2 Forum

I am a high school rower who was going to go lightweight in college but now i have grown to the point where it is unhealthy and just not possible.I am now going to try and row heavy but i need to put on some muscle mass.Does anybody have any advice or links to places that would be good ideas for a weight training program that would help me gain muscle and weight while still erg training to stay in shape but focusing on increased muscle mass.What would be some good general exercises and rep schemes such as for squatting,is going to failure better or less weight more reps? Any help of this would be greatly appreciated!

Nothing special. Just the basis big exercises. Squat, deadlift, pull ups etc. Forget the small stuff. Reps in the 6/12 range. 3/4 set's. Last set to failure, no more. Use good technique!
GOOD FOOD, that is very important, not the training but the RECOVERY from that training will make you grow better. 5/6 meals a day, every meal proteine and slow carbs. Enough to grow, but not so much you will get fat.......
3 sesions per 2 weeks. Make sure you fully recover for the next session.
Rowing/erging focus on endurance. 80% of your meters

Learn the squat, deadlift, bench press, chin-up / pull-up, horizontal row, overhead press, and lunge. And LEARN THEM WELL. These are the mainstay of any *good* lifting program. And note that not all lifting programs given by coaches--in rowing or otherwise--are *good* lifting programs. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

These are truly the only lifts you need to get incredibly strong. Don't bother with any single-joint work like biceps curls, triceps extensions, leg curls/extensions, shoulder raises, etc. They're largely a waste of your time and energy.

Early on, your progress should be linear, and the goal should be to add 5 - 10 lbs per exercise per week. As you get stronger, progress will slow ... but the progress should still be linear--perhaps just on a longer time scale (e.g. 5-10 lbs per month instead of per week). If you're not constantly adding weight to the bar, then you're not getting stronger, and your training isn't working. It's as simple as that.

If you can lift 3x per week, then that's great. Here's what I'd do as a simple starter routine:

Monday:
Squat - 3 x 10 (3 sets of 10 reps)
Bench - 3 x 10
Horizontal Row (dumbbell row or cable seated row) - 3 x 10

Wednesday:
Deadlift - 3 x 5
Military Press - 3 x 10
Chin-Ups - 3 x 10 (do them assisted if necessary, and if you can't hit all the reps, do slow, controlled negatives. i.e. jump up to the top position and lower yourself as slowly as physically possible)

Friday:
Lunge - 3 x 10 (each leg)
Upper body lifts of your choice


Again, the goal should be to add weight with each week. Stick with small increments of 5-10 lbs per lift so that your progress can be steadily maintained ... so that your body can continually adapt to the new stimuli you're undergoing.

When you feel like you've begun to "stall" a bit (this shouldn't be for at least a month), then you can take a light week where you do 1/2 the total volume and stick with easy weights. Then you can return to the program and heavy lifts.

Really, this is an incredibly simple approach to training, and that's all you'll ever really need. I've been lifting seriously for 4-5 years, and I'm still making progress on a program that's almost exactly what I just posted for you above. The keys are (1) proper form and technique, (2) mental intensity with each training session, (3) honesty/humility to make sure you stick to the program and the "slow and steady" approach, and (4) consistency.


Now, if you're working on gaining some mass, then you'll also need to eat enough. Lifting alone won't make you big; you need a lot of calories to support muscle growth. Eat lots of meats, whole grains, veggies, fruits, nuts, and dairy. Stick with whole foods as much as possible, and rely on supplements only minimally (and only if necessary). If you're not gaining weight / muscle mass, then you need to eat more. Sneak in extra snacks during the day until you start to see the scale numbers go up.

One of the problems that will arise is that your erg and rowing training could interfere with your strength and mass gains. Rest and recovery are a major aspect of strength and mass gains, and involve sleep, eating, and just plain doing nothing. Erg workouts, whether on lifting or non lifting days, interfere with the just-plain-doing-nothing part. With less time and energy to recover, progress will be slower.

Luckily, as a high-school boy/college freshman, you may very well be able to do several things at once. You're at the age where anything and everything can work pretty well. This doesn't mean, however, that you shouldn't seek the most efficient way of reaching your goals.

If your immediate term goal is to gain muscle and strength, I would suggest backing off the erg training as much as possible this summer. Work in some easy or technique-focused sessions now and then, but focus on your lifting. Later on, when you are where you want to be in terms of size and strength, you can balance things out and focus more and more on your rowing.

As far as what kind of lifting you should do, I agree with the other posters that the basics will work best at this point. And the best basic program, in my opinion, is this: http://aasgaardco.com/store/store.php?c ... how_detail
Buy it, read it, follow it like your life depends on it. It works.

Start light, get the form and range of motion right, and increase your lifts from one workout to the next. Eat a lot, drink a gallon of whole milk every day. If you follow this advice, you'll have added several dozens of pounds to your lifts and gained a few dozen pounds of bodyweight by September. It doesn't matter if you gain a little chub in the process (sorry, you won't have perfect abz for the beach), you'll have plenty of time to slim down later on.

What's your current height, weight, and strength?

Good luck!

Generally speaking, I agree with your post. Starting Strength is a good book with good ideas, and says the same basic point I said above. Stick with the basics and you can get incredibly strong.

I have a major point of contention with what you said, though. And yes, I know this is Rippetoe's advice:

macroth wrote:drink a gallon of whole milk every day.

That is such a stupid idea. I mean, really. Just think about that for a second ...

Maintaining a healthy body is about maintaining proper proportions with vitamins and minerals, amino acids, fats (saturated vs. unsaturated, poly- vs. mono-, omega-3 vs omega-6 ...), etc. etc etc. That's ill-accomplished by overloading on a single nutrient source like milk. Eat more food in general. Don't do that gallon of milk a day crap.

milkman21 wrote:
Maintaining a healthy body is about maintaining proper proportions with vitamins and minerals, amino acids, fats (saturated vs. unsaturated, poly- vs. mono-, omega-3 vs omega-6 ...), etc. etc etc. That's ill-accomplished by overloading on a single nutrient source like milk. Eat more food in general. Don't do that gallon of milk a day crap.

My coach ate a pie after dinner every day when he rowed for Cornell to put on weight... Disgusting, yes?

Snatch grip overhead squats. Sets of 5. Start with an empty bar.

I WAS a high school rower who got to college weighing 150 lbs and measuring 6' 0".
I wanted to row Hwt... and could not put on weight no matter what.
......... but that was 1970.

Now I'm 57 yrs old & 160lbs . Having done endurance exercise and very low percentage weight training through the years, here are my current scores:

Low Pull 1:16
500m: 1:30.2
2000m: 6:47.6

but I remain focused on the water where I prevail.

Now, I know that being older has a rather tenuous relationship with being U23 or a Junior but I would like to point out that there are many different metabolism types out there that respond in very different ways to diet and heavy resistance exercises.

For me: The best my body ever responded to weight training while rowing is TWICE a week. After that I felt like I was robbing from my OTW training.

When I trained to go to Junior Worlds all our workouts were OTW (no weight room work): generally 4 two-a-days and 2 three-a-days.
That seemed to be a bit extreme at the time but my boat won Nationals by three lengths.


I do not want to say that weight training 3 times a week is a bad idea... It just might be a a poor choice for some for whom it may be inappropriate.

I just got back from the River an hour ago... Dartmouth heavies were out in fours. I couldn't help but notice how strong they looked. I also noticed some surprising imperfections in their form. It made me wonder: "What if these guys started spending more time on the water instead of in the gym?" .... if you get my drift...

Perhaps we should also consider the "periodization" of training routines... Winter might be the best time to do lots of weight work.. Summer might be the best time to do almost all rowing....
Lots of comprehensive guidance from your coaching staff should help too...

milkman21 wrote:

macroth wrote:drink a gallon of whole milk every day.

That is such a stupid idea. I mean, really. Just think about that for a second ...

Maintaining a healthy body is about maintaining proper proportions with vitamins and minerals, amino acids, fats (saturated vs. unsaturated, poly- vs. mono-, omega-3 vs omega-6 ...), etc. etc etc. That's ill-accomplished by overloading on a single nutrient source like milk. Eat more food in general. Don't do that gallon of milk a day crap.

milkman21, you disappoint me.

How else can you get 2,400 calories for 5 bucks? That's a lot of "more food in general". I find the nutrient balance of whole milk to be quite good, actually. For a teenager trying to put on the pounds, not much else works better. I would much rather see him follow this path than waste his money on supplements. But to each his own.

mikvan52 wrote: [T]here are many different metabolism types out there that respond in very different ways to diet and heavy resistance exercises.

Not as many as you think. Some people respond better, but lifting hard and eating a lot with plenty of rest works for everyone. The problem is when you add half a dozen erg or rowing sessions a week. That's not a weight gaining plan.

Perhaps we should also consider the "periodization" of training routines... Winter might be the best time to do lots of weight work.. Summer might be the best time to do almost all rowing....
Lots of comprehensive guidance from your coaching staff should help too...

Well, if he wants to be a bonafide college hwt by September, I would say that right now is his off season. Of course, he should seek advice from his future or current coaches. A lot of this depends on his rowing level, strength level, height and weight.

To extend the milk debate, if that's the direction the kid is leaning I would encourage him to consider drinking two cans of organic coconut milk instead. It's about the same number of calories and price and far less volume. Who wants to drink a gallon of anything every day? The fat in coconut milk (MCT's) is one of the healthiest foods we can consume. Many nutrition scientists would tell you animal milk shouldn't even be consumed by humans.

I would also agree with milkman that I'd prefer to see somebody eat a wider variety of good foods. High fat, average protein, low carb. Coconut milk, coconut oil, avocado, free range eggs, grass fed beef, dark greens, wild caught salmon, etc. This is the exact diet that allowed me to gain over 20 lbs and lose bodyfat in 18 months. My strength went through the roof, unfortunately I don't know how much of it had to do with the diet versus the training.

Let's just be clear that drinking 1/2 or 1 gallon of milk doesn't preclude eating plenty of good food as well. 2400 calories is certainly not enough for an athlete looking to gain weight. You still have to eat your 3+ full meals a day.

Nothing against coconut milk, but it doesn't provide nearly enough protein and carbs. In any event, the gallon of milk a day is just a cheap (college student?), simple guideline. The main thing is to eat a lot, more than you think necessary. Again, this is based on the assumption that strength and weight gain is the main goal.

DanMartin,
Overhead squats are a great exercise, but cannot be done at any significant weight in many weight-room settings. They also suck for building muscle mass.

macroth wrote:
DanMartin,
Overhead squats are a great exercise, but cannot be done at any significant weight in many weight-room settings. They also suck for building muscle mass.

Please elucidate?

The overhead squat (as a stand alone exercise) works more muscle tissue/muscle groups than any other exercise. If the trainee works towards doing an overhead squat for 15 reps (with a bar equalling bodyweight) a considerable amount of strength, usable strength, will have been obtained. By systematically increasing food intake "mass" will come.

To simply increase mass for the sake of increasing mass can be done by following a standard bodybuilding "hard gainer" type program. But will he get the biggest rowing bang for the effort?

The rower in question wants to move from lightweight to heavyweight. Getting good at the overhead squat will do that in spades.

aharmer wrote:To extend the milk debate, if that's the direction the kid is leaning I would encourage him to consider drinking two cans of organic coconut milk instead.

I really don't understand the desire to get such a large quantity of calories from a single source. That simply doesn't make sense.

Why not say "eat 2 extra large peanut butter and banana sandwiches each day with 2 cups of milk each time"? That's pretty easy, and already includes nutrients from 3 new sources (3 new food subgroups). Sure, it's not as pithy or "simple" ... but is that a bad thing?

The fat in coconut milk (MCT's) is one of the healthiest foods we can consume.

First of all, says who? A few years ago, the consensus was that coconut oil was disastrous for heart health. So, do you really believe this to be conclusive? I know that paleo/zone people love the idea of coconut milk, and I do think it's got a number of proven health benefits ... but ultimately it's very rich in saturated fat, which can be problematic.

And even if "MCT's are one of the healthiest foods we can consume" is a true statement beyond reproach ... so too is fish oil. But too much of that can thin your blood. Don't you think that a huge amount of MCT's might have some unforseen, deleterious effect?

There *is* such a thing as "too much" of almost any vitamin or mineral or fatty acid or amino acid. Especially when there's too much of one nutrient in comparison with another.

Many nutrition scientists would tell you animal milk shouldn't even be consumed by humans

But many more nutrition scientists would suggest that drinking milk is absolutely fine for 99% of the population.

I would also agree with milkman that I'd prefer to see somebody eat [...] low carb

Why would you short change yourself on carbs, especially if you're trying to gain mass and strength? Isn't that hamstringing your efforts?



Sorry, I don't mean to be disagreeable ... but I think the OP deserves a little clarity on these issues. I know that you're an avid CF/Paleo guy--and that's fine--but you have to admit your bias here. Ultimately, the paleo approach to nutrition is based more on a theory than on hard science. It takes an unconventional approach when compared with thousands of human behavior and a very well-established body of scientific research.

DanMartin wrote: The overhead squat (as a stand alone exercise) works more muscle tissue/muscle groups than any other exercise. If the trainee works towards doing an overhead squat for 15 reps (with a bar equalling bodyweight) a considerable amount of strength, usable strength, will have been obtained. By systematically increasing food intake "mass" will come.

To simply increase mass for the sake of increasing mass can be done by following a standard bodybuilding "hard gainer" type program. But will he get the biggest rowing bang for the effort?

The rower in question wants to move from lightweight to heavyweight. Getting good at the overhead squat will do that in spades.

You've GOT to be kidding me.

So, he should just do overhead squats, and then he'll get big and strong? If only someone would tell this to athletes from the NFL, NBA, NCAA, MLB, NHL, Tour de France, World Cup, Olympic games, strongman competitions ... maybe we'd have more good athletes out there.