Concept2 Forum

I've had my C2 for about 2 weeks, did my first solid 30 min and looked at my numbers.
My strokes per minute seems to be at 33-35.
Distance was 6337.
Average watts 121.
HR av 160.
/500 is 2:22.5
Cal/Hour is 716.
First 15 minutes were about 103 watts, last 15 was about 140
My heart rate was about 175 for about last 6 min, I am 38.

Looking at other peoples, should I be adjusting my stroke for a stronger stroke? What might be the benefits?

In general you want to get the most power out of your stroke without getting over fatigued before the end of the workout or race that you're rowing.

High stroke rates at slow pace (low watts) are common in newbie rowers and in folks who've never been taught how to row.

First thing to do is learn to use your legs. The stroke is 70% legs, 10% body, 20% arms (give or take).
Short folks tend to rate higher than tall folks, because we don't have the length of stroke that the tall folks have.

Start on here by searching for "drag factor". Hopefully that will help you to understand why having the damper fully open (on 10) isn't a good way to row.

Read this: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38 so that you understand the jargon used on here.

Watch this:

We also need to know a few vital stats: age, weight, height, gender.

Mydrrin wrote:I've had my C2 for about 2 weeks, did my first solid 30 min and looked at my numbers.
My strokes per minute seems to be at 33-35.
Distance was 6337.
Average watts 121.
HR av 160.
/500 is 2:22.5
Cal/Hour is 716.
First 15 minutes were about 103 watts, last 15 was about 140
My heart rate was about 175 for about last 6 min, I am 38.

Looking at other peoples, should I be adjusting my stroke for a stronger stroke? What might be the benefits?

What is your drag factor set at?

Starting out you probably don't want to have such a relatively high SPM. Watch the technique video on the site. The power should come from your legs. I would ignore your HR and until you get the technique down. Ignore cal/hr all together since it is an estimate. This SPM rate and your 500m split suggest you are not using your legs to get the proper power in each stroke. But others can certainly provide more educated input than I can.

How tall are you and what is your weight?

JD

Thank you for the video.
I am 5'9" - 196 pounds - 38 years old - male - my drag is 4 on dial and 107 on the PM4.
My leg inseam is 28", I have a large upper body and short legs.
I bought the C2 for cross training for rugby, getting and keeping fitness levels. I play hooker if that means anything.

Mydrrin wrote:I've had my C2 for about 2 weeks, did my first solid 30 min and looked at my numbers.
My strokes per minute seems to be at 33-35.
Distance was 6337.
Average watts 121.
HR av 160.
/500 is 2:22.5
Cal/Hour is 716.
First 15 minutes were about 103 watts, last 15 was about 140
My heart rate was about 175 for about last 6 min, I am 38.

Looking at other peoples, should I be adjusting my stroke for a stronger stroke? What might be the benefits?

Your rating or SPM is way too high and your drag is too low. Get it down to 27-28 straight away and then work on getting it lower still over time. With your build your possibly better off on quite a high drag factor like 160 to start with then begin to drop it over time as well to like 145.

Sounds like you should have a base fitness level to work from already but you HR is pretty high for the power your producing. You will find the more you row, things nuturally change and evolve. Monitor your HR to see what works and what doesn't.

Put your basic information in your signature and let us know your progress.

Citroen wrote:High stroke rates at slow pace (low watts) are common in newbie rowers and in folks who've never been taught how to row.

....We also need to know a few vital stats: age, weight, height, gender.

I have been never done any rowing on the water, but I have learnt the correct technique on the C2 from rowing instructors. I have always found the faster stroke rates easier even though I was told to aim for low spms. I typically do 1000 - 1500m intervals about 32 spm in the low 1:50's/500. When I try to slow them down to the teens I seem to tire more quickly, which goes against the conventional wisdom. I'm not sure how much of this is mental versus physical because when I do longer sessions at lower spm and pace, I start out OK, but after just a minute or so I can't take it anymore and I feel compelled to up my rate and pace.

Should I still be working on lowering my spm?

I am 54, M, 5'9", 170lb (trying to get down to 160) Relatively long legs/height.

Dreadnought wrote:When I try to slow them down to the teens I seem to tire more quickly, which goes against the conventional wisdom.

This is where the strange watts/stroke number (labelled by Paul Smith as SPI) gives you a partial explanation. For the first part of my example we'll assume you're rowing at the same pace and varying the stroke rate.

If you're rowing at 200watts at 20 strokes per minute then that's 200/20 = 10SPI
If you're rowing at 200watts at 32 strokes per minute then that's 200/32 = 6.25SPI

That means each stroke at the higher rate puts less into the system and is, therefore, easier.

If we now turn that around so that we keep this "mythical" SPI number steady then as stroke rate varies the pace (watts) varies to compensate.

200/20 = 10SPI
320/32 = 10SPI

And when we convert those watts numbers back to pace 200W == 2:00.5 and 320W == 1:43.0 so, in theory, that higher stroke rate gives you a better result.

But, it's not that simple as the amount of time taken to row at 20 strokes per minute gives you more time to recover so you can get more power from each drive, whereas at 32 strokes per minute means it less power per stroke but more of them (given that each stroke takes less time and you have less time to recover before the next stroke starts). The name of the game is to find an optimal stroke rate/pace combination and from that the drive vs recovery ratio that you can sustain for the duration of the piece you're doing. The other major factors are the distance you're doing and the drag factor you're working against.

You shouldn't tire more quickly at low stroke rates unless you're pushing excessively high paces. The hardest workout being the all out 600strokes, 30 minutes at 20 strokes/minute if you want to get a good distance.

One person on here worships the "SPI God" but, conveniently, forgets that the other dynamics of the stroke change.

Dreadnought wrote:I typically do 1000 - 1500m intervals about 32 spm in the low 1:50's/500. When I try to slow them down to the teens I seem to tire more quickly, which goes against the conventional wisdom.

That's about (500/[32x1:52/60]) about 8.37 meters per stroke, which is good for a 5' 9 lightweight.

There is a correlation between low rates and height, torso height, body distribution and weight. A low stroke rate, i.e. higher meters per stroke, is easier to use for taller rowers, especially those with longer torsos for height, and/or top heavy upper bodies. There is no correlation between what one does at low rates and performance at race distances.

A friend of mine who is a 6' 5" lightweight and longer torso than legs had no trouble at all thrashing me at low rates of 10, 12, 15, 20 spm, especially the lower the rating, but my times are quite a bit faster than his at all ranking distances.

Should I still be working on lowering my spm?

No.

I am 54, M, 5'9", 170lb (trying to get down to 160) Relatively long legs/height.

The world champion Danes and Italians, Ebbesen, Luini, Stephansen are 6'1-6'2, and ALL of them row at about 8.0 meters per stroke for all distances.

My PB's from 2k through the marathon have all been at 8 mps, less than this (higher rate) for the 500m and 1k, though I am less than 5' 9. Using the example of the top rowers, my mps would be less than 8 mps. In fact, when I started rowing, my rating was 7.33 meters per stroke.

(5.8625 / 74") x 8.0 = 7.4 mps

I would use the rating that feels the best to you, and that helps you to row the fastest with least effort.

Should I still be working on lowering my spm?

If you are working to improve your form:

Many coaches prescribe low stroke rates to perfect better form.
This doesn't seem to be of paramount interest to many people on the erg where any form is considered good if it gets the desired score.
The problem is that marginal form will set a limit on your ultimate best. That is, you may end up not reaching your full potential.

Also: Work load:
Much of one's work on the erg can be done at the 60-70% effort level with great results. Wouldn't it be better to do this a lower strokes rates to ensure that one doesn't learn to rush the slide on the recovery? I think so.

spi, why not label it with the much more intuitive term 'energy per stroke'. You only need to multiply by 60 in order to get at Joules per stroke.

Tinus wrote:spi, why not label it with the much more intuitive term 'energy per stroke'. You only need to multiply by 60 in order to get at Joules per stroke.

The problem isn't the name, the problem is that it doesn't have any sensible units (unless, somehow, it can be expressed as inverse square farads).

Yeah forget about SPI, stick to meaningful units that actually exist on the PM, especially for newbies.

Pace, SPM and if you want to look at something extra DPS or distance per stroke.

Bottom line you cannot continue to row at 2:22.5 ave/500M while doing 33-35 SPM.

2:22.5 is slow and you cannot increase your rating to improve it if your already going at 33-35 SPM.

At 2:22.5 you want to work your way towards 14-16 SPM but quickly get to 25-27 SPM and work on power to decrease the rating.

This typically evolves just naturally the more you row I have found as my 2K is even done at 1:46 at only 24 SPM now so clearly room to rate up slightly and improve the pace to a sub 7.

Citroen wrote:

Tinus wrote:spi, why not label it with the much more intuitive term 'energy per stroke'. You only need to multiply by 60 in order to get at Joules per stroke.

The problem isn't the name, the problem is that it doesn't have any sensible units (unless, somehow, it can be expressed as inverse square farads).

Energy per stroke is very sensible. But, if you don't believe spi has sensible units why mention it?

Tinus wrote:Energy per stroke is very sensible. But, if you don't believe spi has sensible units why mention it?

What units are you measuring "energy per stroke" with? Is that inverse square farads?

I used SPI to illustrate the difference between 2:00 pace @ 20SPM and 2:00 pace at 32SPM, nothing more. I didn't write a whole training plan based on using that with rowing with breaks and the other crap that SPI's favourite user extolls on here.

Citroen wrote:

Tinus wrote:Energy per stroke is very sensible. But, if you don't believe spi has sensible units why mention it?

What units are you measuring "energy per stroke" with? Is that inverse square farads?

I used SPI to illustrate the difference between 2:00 pace @ 20SPM and 2:00 pace at 32SPM, nothing more. I didn't write a whole training plan based on using that with rowing with breaks and the other crap that SPI's favourite user extolls on here.

Any unit of energy can be used (calories, joules, etc.). I suggest you use Joule as unit since you also use Watts which is related.

200 Watt @ 20SPM -> 600 Joules per stroke
200 Watt @ 32SPM -> 375 Joules per stroke.
Isn't energy per stroke more meaningful then SPI?

SPI may have a meaning but if you don't explain the meaning of SPI or give an intuitive idea then you could just as well talk about a meaningless term. E.g. use the term DIFFICULT (Distance Index For Frequency Illogically Combined Using Length Time). Without explanation an argument that 32SPM doesn't feel as heavy as 20SPM because it has a lower DIFFICULT is just as valid as an argument making use of SPI.

2:00 @ 20SPM -> L*T/F = 500 meters * 2 minutes / 20 strokes per minute = 50 [meter square minute per stroke]
2:00 @ 32SPM -> DIFFICULT = 31.25